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Snow Removal for Airport

Discussion in 'Government Property Snow Removal' started by TUPilot, Feb 29, 2016.

  1. Whiffyspark

    Whiffyspark 2000 Club Member
    from SOMD
    Messages: 2,403

    What are you going to use a 200 hp tractor for in the summer? Attachments are going to be expensive as hell. A pto shredder is one option but Just the logistics of moving that is going to be a pain in the ass.

    That's not the answer to your problem, IMO.
     
  2. maxwellp

    maxwellp PlowSite.com Addict
    Messages: 1,123

    KEFT - larger than your airport - I help there if they get snow and I do not. I also work on planes there. Anyway they have 2 CAT loaders - larger - no idea - on what number they are. 8-12 hours clears the place out. Both have blades and buckets. No box pushers. No blowers. 2 runways one 5000x75 - one 3000x75 ish. 50 inches snow a year. No big deal -
     
  3. Mark Oomkes

    Mark Oomkes PlowSite Fanatic
    Messages: 12,305

    Even though the OP never answered Buff's or my question, he should check into a fleet of Ventracs.
     
  4. Masssnowfighter

    Masssnowfighter Senior Member
    from ma
    Messages: 217

    http://www.plowsite.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=151093&stc=1&d=1456880299
    Fred's Diamond Reo blower and my barely used Oshkosh with a 18'6" plow would make a good start to your arsenal.wesport And for budget purposes I believe Fred said he paid $5k for his blower and I paid $10k for my Oshkosh that has only 1200 original hours on it and I paid another $4k for the power angle full trip airport plow. So for a grand total of $19k you could have the two most important pieces of your fleet. And there is plenty of good deals out there on ex-airport equipment if you look hard enough. I don't know what your exact budget is but that should leave plenty of money free to buy a really nice loader with a quick connect, so that you can get a broom for it, then take what ever money you have left over and buy a metal pless pusher. You figure the loader can pull double duty of brooming the runway and clearing the parking areas.

    oshkosh1.jpg

    oshkosh4.JPG
     
  5. Masssnowfighter

    Masssnowfighter Senior Member
    from ma
    Messages: 217

     
  6. Aerospace Eng

    Aerospace Eng Senior Member
    Messages: 276

    Actually, the photo of KEFT (January 2008) shows the problem on runways well...

    http://www.airnav.com/airport/KEFT

    The banks on the side of the runways should not be there, and there is no practical way other than a blower to get rid of them, which is why blowers are the 2nd piece of equipment recommended by the FAA, after a plow. Unfortunately, most small airports do not have blowers.
     
  7. maxwellp

    maxwellp PlowSite.com Addict
    Messages: 1,123

    How can you see anything with that picture - No problem on the runways. The banks are back behind the lights. So if they are hitting snow they are picking off lights. :dizzy:
     
  8. Aerospace Eng

    Aerospace Eng Senior Member
    Messages: 276

    It is the same one. It was actually in Ellenburg Depot, NY. Used by a guy at a border crossing, and he was required to be Tier IV compliant.

    The broken front axle that the airport guy didn't find may also have had something to do with that, but it looks like that will be only about $1500 to fix.

    I think it will work out just fine.

    For the OP, however, rather than a modified 1948 that KPJC has or the Diamond Reo listed above, I'd get something made in the 1970s or later, just because it is easier to find parts for the newer engines, axles, transmissions, etc.
     
  9. FredG

    FredG 2000 Club Member
    Messages: 2,875

    Lots of unanswered?'s. This in house snow removal is not that difficult with right equipment and operators. You have to start somewhere and a budget for equipment needed is a good start, Good use able airport equipment is not that hard to find with a little monies.

    If you are concerned about maintenance and break downs I would suggest hiring it out. In house snow operations has a very low success rate, Normally because the general public thinks moving snow is no big thing and are all snow wizards. Do you just have your feelers out or are you committed to perform this snow service. Can you handle your initial investment and were do you want to be with it?
     
  10. Whiffyspark

    Whiffyspark 2000 Club Member
    from SOMD
    Messages: 2,403

    The $ outlay vs snow we get could be a problem. I personally don't think a 200 hp tractor is the answer. There's no real summer work for that unless he wants to send it 3 hours away to work on a farm. There may be a few places closer but they all have their own tractors. A pto mulcher is good for a 200 hp tractor but then he has to worry about his 6 figure tractor getting torn up in the woods lol

    Take this year we had one good 18-30 inch snow. Then I think 3 more nuisance storms. It's usually like that every year
     
  11. FredG

    FredG 2000 Club Member
    Messages: 2,875

    The year of equipment really has nothing to do with it at this point. You have to know where his budget is at. My airport blower is a 67 with 3300 miles on it. Is this my choice machine, NO, I would rather have all wheel steer and about 2000 more HP. You never have enough HP blowing snow the more the better. A $5K investment just turned to a $60k investment with any luck.

    The condition, service records, History on machine, Meaning were was it purchased new and what location was it working. Did it change hands 5 times from original airport. The military had some sweet airport blowers for $15K.
     
  12. FredG

    FredG 2000 Club Member
    Messages: 2,875

     
  13. Aerospace Eng

    Aerospace Eng Senior Member
    Messages: 276

    I agree completely with respect to there being nothing wrong with used equipment. All my equipment is used, and there are some blowers from the 1950s that are being used every winter in Canada (just look at You-Tube). I would get a used blower for not a lot of money. I'd look carefully at a military blower as the Italian gearboxes on the blower on some are a problem and very pricey (or so the Lancaster, PA airport manager told me).

    The only reason for a 200hp PTO tractor would be to run a blower, but I don't see a need for that. If you have an old chassis mount for $20K-$30K, which is not much more than you would pay for a new PTO blower that size, I think it is a better option. Without the need to power a blower, you only need a tractor big enough to push a hydraulic blade with wings, which would probably be down in the 125-150 hp range, or even smaller if you are willing to take more passes.

    The thing about some of the very old equipment is that finding parts might be an issue. A blower with an old Hall-Scott (defunct in 1960) or Buda (Allis Chalmers bought them in 1953) motor is great until the motor has a problem. If you can't get it repaired, you can drop in something newer as long as it has the same SAE interface, but it would still take some engineering.

    The axles on the old Sicard we have are an example of chasing parts....

    Timken single speed double reduction axles, the rear being a toploader. 7.33 ratios. No data tags, just casting numbers.

    Once we got it apart, it looked like the failure started when the left side CV joint stub shaft broke, and then it caught in the housing and snapped the axle shaft and chewed up the spider gears. Biggest CV joint I ever saw, with a 2 5/8" 10 spline stub shaft, and a 2.5" 16 spline axle shaft, and 6 1.25" balls being the interface.

    If we could find repair parts, great. If we couldn't, we could theoretically put in a newer axle (like an FDS1600), but the ratios wouldn't match, so we would have to change both the front and rear out. An older military 5 ton drive steer axle might work, with the same issues on ratio.

    It took 2 weeks to find out, based on the casting numbers, that it was an f3200 (Thank you Sam Winer Motors in Akron, OH). I could not find an f3200 anywhere. It took 3 weeks before Sicard (Thanks Phil Owens) was able to excavate enough to find an old paper Rockwell catalog that mentioned the f3200 and scan some pages that had part numbers (but no diagrams on them). The catalog was enough to confirm that the f3200 and f3100 shared the same cv joints, spider gears, and left side axle shaft.

    Sam Winer used to have, but did not currently have, any F3100s (used on WWII 6x6 6 tons and a few others), as mud boggers had gobbled up the supply. I did find that a few were available, but not plentiful. Found an f3100 for $875 in California ($500 in shipping) and it should be on a truck to PA in a few days. It's the wrong ratio, an 8.12, but the reduction gears on what we have are fine. We will then have spares we will probably never need.

    My point was that buying something that had more modern stuff, like axles and engines that are readily available, might be worth it, as then you just buy the parts you need quickly, rather than chase 50-70 year old parts in boneyards.
     
    Last edited: Mar 10, 2016
  14. FredG

    FredG 2000 Club Member
    Messages: 2,875

    The facts about a newer machine would be easier to get parts for is no secret to heavy equipment owners..The ? here is how much moneys can this Airport afford or willing to spend on equipment for in house snow removal.

    Same old story, I got to purchase something that I can use on property in summer months or something that can bring me revenue in summer months or there's a lot of options out there which means your confused or not ready to make a move and maybe never have no intention to and just got your feelers out. My summer equipment has no place in my winter operations and the same for winter equipment in the summer.

    With all the ?'s asked by PS members that have been not answered this post is full of smoke and is going nowhere but to pass time away. How about just heating the runway, All snow issues solved or a fleet of ventrac as MarkO advised, Geez!
     
  15. Aerospace Eng

    Aerospace Eng Senior Member
    Messages: 276

    I try not to worry about whether people are just blowing smoke. I just try to give honest opinions. In this case just giving the OP info, as he is uncertain about what to do, hence his first post.
     
  16. FredG

    FredG 2000 Club Member
    Messages: 2,875

    For gods sake. The OP has to have a budget and somewhat of a plan or nobody can help him. If not we are all blowing smoke. You just wrote a book on axles and spindles etc. Whats next to help the OP? HP and torque.
     
  17. F250/XLS

    F250/XLS Senior Member
    from Canada
    Messages: 142

    This post was actualy very interesting,,,,,, even without a budget ,,,,the info
    given by Aerospace was good and well put......nothing wrong with sharing ideas
    on diff equipment ,,,,,,
     
    Last edited: Mar 11, 2016
  18. FredG

    FredG 2000 Club Member
    Messages: 2,875

    Well.... I thrilled you enjoyed it..... The fact is the OP is still at square one besides some opinion on equipment, This info is not valuable till we know what the airport is willing to invest and if he's serious. Funny thing nobody can get this info.... FYI the equipment needed is available used very little and at reasonable money if you know the market and where to look for it.

    The most valuable machinery for what the airport needs to perform this service has been posted. I usually go to the heavy equipment form when looking for above info. about drive trains where guys know this equipment and know where to get parts.

    Whatever I will stay out of it. I don't have these problems, I need it I buy it.
     
  19. Broncslefty7

    Broncslefty7 Senior Member
    Messages: 864

    2 ag tractors, metal pless aggrimaxx live edges on the front. blowers on the back. pair that with a truck or a skid with a plow and you are golden.
     
  20. TUPilot

    TUPilot Junior Member
    Messages: 14

    Its been a while--looks like this will be on hold, so I will certainly let folks know when an RFP for next year goes out.

    By the way, if anyone does any summer work, or knows someone who does, we will be issuing an RFP for mowing shortly. If you PM me I can get a copy of the RFP to you.

    Thanks!