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I somewhat apologize for what is going to be a fairly long post....Hopefully the information is useful to you and/or contractors that may bid on snow removal.

In answer to your question about whether something can push 350 feet, the answer is yes. Our longest push is about 750 feet, and our machines easily push the snow to the end. The problem is spilling. Using a protech standard loader pusher SP-16L as an example (since they give a "capacity"), a 16 foot pusher will accomodate 21 yd^3 of snow. After doing some math, this is 425 ft-in. So, if you have a 1" snowfall, you should be able to push 425 feet before significant spilling, while you should be able to push 212.5 ft for a 2" snowfall. Actual results may vary.

If you start having significant spilling, you then have to come back and clean up the spilled windrows. If they are large enough, you start spilling and create two more trying to get rid of one. You can chase your tail for quite a while, but it will eventually get done.

Airports are fundamentally a different world than conventional snow plowing.

Because it is hard to clear next to buildings or aircraft, what we typically do at KPJC is to run a snowblower (or, for light snows, a snowgrader from jmenterprises) to clear 2 to 3 feet from the building or aircraft, then run a plow to widen the cleared path to 8 feet or so, and then start pushing. This way spillage stays far enough away from the building so that you can clean it up, rather than winding up with a berm under the tails and props of aircraft or pushed up against the hangar doors. At KPJC, Tenants are responsible for clearing within 3 feet of their building, and once the airport clears the ramp/taxilane they don't come back. This is where communication with the tenants comes in handy, so they can shovel/snowblow that initial 3 feet before the airport comes through.

Runways and taxiways are done with plow trucks and a broom in-trail to immediately broom the area before it can ice.

The most basic example of this can be found in taxiways. For a group I airport (accomodating aircraft with wingspans up to 50 feet), the taxiway width that should be free of obstacles is 80 feet wide. The pavement is typically only 25 feet wide. For group II aircraft (up to 80 foot spans) the area free of obstacles is supposed to be 116 feet, and the paved area is typically 35 feet. Runways have similar issues.

For Group I and II aircraft, the guidance from the FAA is to have a berm no higher than 6" at the runway edge lights, increasing to 2 feet 16 feet beyond the lights and 5 feet 32 feet beyond the lights. Even if you ignore that guidance, the lights must be uncovered if the airport is to allow landings at night or in IFR conditions, which creates a problem if you simply plow to the edge and leave a berm, as you then have to shovel around the lights by hand.

Similarly, if you don't push the snow way beyond the paved area of the ramp, then you start losing ramp area for maneuvering.

Hence the use of big blowers on airports. Windrow the snow to the last 8' or so of pavement and then blow it into the weeds. You can get an idea of prices for used blowers at www.publiquip.com. This is mostly canadian equipment, but as a result they have a bigger selection of large blowers than most US sites. One issue may be whether you are required to have Tier IV compliant equipment, as the older blowers will not meet this requirement.

At the risk of turning this into read-a-book_site, guidance from the FAA can be found in Advisory Circular AC 150/5200-30C, "Airport Winter Safety and Operations." While non-mandatory except for part 129 airports, it is guidance that can be used either for yourself or for establishing and evaluating what is a "good job" for a contractor.

Guidance on equipment selection can be found in AC 150/5220-20A, "Airport Snow and Ice Control Equipment."

Another difference between airports and other sites is the lack of traffic before plowing and obstacles. This is an advantage because you don't need to worry about scraping hard-pack, and can use rubber edge pushers on ramp areas with reasonable results, particularly if you broom afterwards. This is important due to the no-salt requirements. At KPJC salt is not even used on the entrance roads, as tenants will occasionally drive on the ramps to get to T-hangars and the airport does not want salt tracked in. Urea used to be acceptable as a de-icer, and the FAA is not opposed, but usually the local EPA equivalent has banned it as a de-icer for environmental reasons.

With respect to leasing equipment, I know of some airports in ag communities that will purchase a large PTO snowblower (such as a snowblast/teamco 10800 or larger) and then contract with a local farmer for the use of a large (300 PTO hp) ag tractor to run the blower when they need it. The farmers aren't usually opposed as their tractor isn't doing anything in the winter anyway.

Similarly, you might be able to find paving contractors with brooms that are sitting idle all winter.

Assuming you a public airport, you might be able to get first dibs on equipment that BWI or some regional airports are getting rid of.

You may be able to get equipment using AIP funds, but that requires that you have put it in your master plan, 12 year plan, 5 year plan, etc., and have done the appropriate politicking. You also only get AIP $$ for equipment once every 10 years or so, so a lot of thought has to go into it. As with everything, there are strings. If you get any money for equipment, the FAA prohibits it from being used off the airport, so forget leasing it out.
 
MAN, this is the reason I LOVE THIS SITE. Although I doubt I will ever be involved in airport snow removal, 1) this is an interesting thread to follow and 2) the ABSOLUTE WEALTH OF KNOWLEDGE on any given subject and the "holders" of said knowledge that are willing to get on here, and take the time to share it with others, is incredible. AWESOME POST A.E.
 
derekslawncare;2125401 said:
MAN, this is the reason I LOVE THIS SITE. Although I doubt I will ever be involved in airport snow removal, 1) this is an interesting thread to follow and 2) the ABSOLUTE WEALTH OF KNOWLEDGE on any given subject and the "holders" of said knowledge that are willing to get on here, and take the time to share it with others, is incredible. AWESOME POST A.E.
Very true... I am enjoying that the OP is taking the information that all are providing and listening as these are angles of the industry to think about and not taking the defense automatically. Hopefully he can get the information that he needs to make his discussion and use it effectively. Thumbs Up
 
Discussion starter · #25 ·
Aerospace Eng;2125350 said:
I somewhat apologize for what is going to be a fairly long post....Hopefully the information is useful to you and/or contractors that may bid on snow removal.

Because it is hard to clear next to buildings or aircraft, what we typically do at KPJC is to run a snowblower (or, for light snows, a snowgrader from jmenterprises) to clear 2 to 3 feet from the building or aircraft, then run a plow to widen the cleared path to 8 feet or so, and then start pushing. This way spillage stays far enough away from the building so that you can clean it up, rather than winding up with a berm under the tails and props of aircraft or pushed up against the hangar doors. At KPJC, Tenants are responsible for clearing within 3 feet of their building, and once the airport clears the ramp/taxilane they don't come back. This is where communication with the tenants comes in handy, so they can shovel/snowblow that initial 3 feet before the airport comes through.

Runways and taxiways are done with plow trucks and a broom in-trail to i
I appreciate all the details. I'm at KFME, we currently deal with Cat I and Cat II aircraft (we do get MV-22s on rare occasions which are Cat III but they are such oddballs and so rare I'm not really worried about them!)

We generally don't get too close to the planes, and as you mentioned a big concern is not having a pile they need to dig out from. Due to our ramp design there is not really anywhere to blow, so I think pushing (or a broom for light stuff) is our only option. The runway and taxiway would be good for blowing.

Any reason you plow the runway than pick up the windrow with a blower, rather than just blowing the entire surface?
 
TUPilot;2125467 said:
I appreciate all the details. I'm at KFME, we currently deal with Cat I and Cat II aircraft (we do get MV-22s on rare occasions which are Cat III but they are such oddballs and so rare I'm not really worried about them!)

We generally don't get too close to the planes, and as you mentioned a big concern is not having a pile they need to dig out from. Due to our ramp design there is not really anywhere to blow, so I think pushing (or a broom for light stuff) is our only option. The runway and taxiway would be good for blowing.

Any reason you plow the runway than pick up the windrow with a blower, rather than just blowing the entire surface?
My guess would be that blowers are generally extremely slow moving, regardless of depth, they pretty much move at a crawl, so it is probably much quicker to windrow over to the side with several passes from the plow which moves quickly, then make one pass with the blower to get rid of the windrow.
 
derekslawncare;2125478 said:
My guess would be that blowers are generally extremely slow moving, regardless of depth, they pretty much move at a crawl, so it is probably much quicker to windrow over to the side with several passes from the plow which moves quickly, then make one pass with the blower to get rid of the windrow.
Exactly. Usually you are moving at walking speed with the blower (3-5 feet per second), and they are 8 or so feet wide, so 10 passes for your 75 foot wide runway, 30000 feet total, would mean about 2 hours for the runway.

The really big airport blowers move more quickly, but they typically have 500-1500 horsepower for the blower, and another 300 hp or so engine just to move the chassis

Even then, the big airports will use a set of plows towing brooms in an echelon formation to windrow the snow and then still use the blower for a single pass.

If you get 2' dumped on you and you haven't plowed with the storm then the plows can't push it anyway and you will have to take passes with the blower.
 
If its not against regulation or personal, A layout of airport would get more opinion on equipment, operators, Trigger levels, Where you can pile snow and where you can't. You been hiring it out, You still have to see where your at. You may find out the Contractor is more reasonable than taking it in house. JMO have not seen to many in house snow operations make the grade. You will have to cover slip and fall performing in house snow operations.
 
blowers and brooms

As a pilot and a plow jockey a few things come to mind.

Every airport has very specific procedures for snow as lights and signs cant be obstructed and snow cant be piled up anywhere where low wings will clip it.

A loader with a large power angle plow make three or four passes will likely clear the centerline and enough for safe operations, but every airport i know uses large tow behind brooms and also blowers to blast the snow far far away after wind rowing.

If budget it tight, I would think one decent loader with a large plow with power ends to form a box would suffice. A large blower on a tractor with some serious hp and then a 4x4 with plow would likely be a great solution. Without a good blower, i think there would be issues. You never ever see big piles at airports.

Sounds like a fun job to plan out, but have to say i feel bad for the contractor that is going to get a pink slip. Not cool.
 
I looked at the airport on Google earth. You have a lot of area between the taxiway and Runway. Why, I'm not sure.

Was General Aviation Drive originally the runway? Those turnoffs look more like runway/taxiway throats rather than typical road intersections.

The biggest problem you have is the ramp.

At any rate, given the 450 feet or so between the runway and taxiway, I would push everything, including the snow from the corporate hangars to the southern edge of the taxiway and blow it into the center area.

You would need something with an angle plow to take snow away from the aircraft into the middle of each pushing lane, and then push to the south from there. Options would either be a pickup and a loader/telehandler to push a box, or a loader/telehandler with a hydraulically operated plow with wings to first windrow and then push. I wouldn't go wider than about 16' for a box, or in a "box" configuration. You might be able to push it but the maneuverability goes down and the quality is not as good unless you have no dips or humps in your pavement. I'd go with a deeper and higher box more so than a wider one.

Definitely need a big blower, either a loader mount or one on its own chassis. I'd probably get one on its own chassis, as they are relatively cheap and then you don't have to worry about switching it out.

I think those 15 individual 10' x 110' "driveways" to the west with airplanes parked at the end are a PITA. Is the airport responsible for them, or are the tenants? Other than a blower, I don't know a good way to clear them without either leaving icy tire tracks or a windrow in front of the aircraft, but there are a lot of experienced people on here that do driveways. They are not taxiways or runways, so there is no problem with snowbanks as long as they are below the aircraft wings, so about 2' or so for Mooneys, some homebuilts, etc.

Image
 
Discussion starter · #32 ·
Aerospace Eng;2125588 said:
I looked at the airport on Google earth. You have a lot of area between the taxiway and Runway. Why, I'm not sure.

Was General Aviation Drive originally the runway? Those turnoffs look more like runway/taxiway throats rather than typical road intersections.

The biggest problem you have is the ramp.

At any rate, given the 450 feet or so between the runway and taxiway, I would push everything, including the snow from the corporate hangars to the southern edge of the taxiway and blow it into the center area.

You would need something with an angle plow to take snow away from the aircraft into the middle of each pushing lane, and then push to the south from there. Options would either be a pickup and a loader/telehandler to push a box, or a loader/telehandler with a hydraulically operated plow with wings to first windrow and then push. I wouldn't go wider than about 16' for a box, or in a "box" configuration. You might be able to push it but the maneuverability goes down and the quality is not as good unless you have no dips or humps in your pavement. I'd go with a deeper and higher box more so than a wider one.

Definitely need a big blower, either a loader mount or one on its own chassis. I'd probably get one on its own chassis, as they are relatively cheap and then you don't have to worry about switching it out.

I think those 15 individual 10' x 110' "driveways" to the west with airplanes parked at the end are a PITA. Is the airport responsible for them, or are the tenants? Other than a blower, I don't know a good way to clear them without either leaving icy tire tracks or a windrow in front of the aircraft, but there are a lot of experienced people on here that do driveways. They are not taxiways or runways, so there is no problem with snowbanks as long as they are below the aircraft wings, so about 2' or so for Mooneys, some homebuilts, etc.
Thanks for the suggestions. It is a former military airfield, and was constructed using guidance that would normally be applied to much larger facilities. Everything from our ramp to hangars to lighting system is "heavy duty" compared to what you'd expect at an airport this size.

Your suggestion of pushing to the taxiway and blowing is along the lines of what I was thinking. We either need to push north to the fence or south to the taxiway, and if we can blow into the midfield area south makes more sense rather than dealing with huge piles along the fence. We might still push some of the hangar ramp areas to the fence, but the main "alleys" are probably best done as you suggest.

You suggested using an angle plow in the alleys. Is that due to spillage off of box plow being an issue?

As far as the "driveways"... those are old helipads from the military days. We use them as tie-downs for inactive planes, so there is no urgency to clear them most of the time. We will be putting in some new T-hangars in the open area by the driveways, between the hangar and the access road.
 
Yes. Once your box fills you get spillage, which can be an inch or two high, or a foot or two high, depending on type of snow and how deep it is.

You (or a contractor if you use one) needs to be able to pull snow away from the aircraft or the hangar doors. Once you have a 8 foot or so gap you can then push and even if it spills still have 5-6 feet of clearance to go back and pick up the spillage.

We have found that if we don't do this, we have to go back in with shovels or a walk-behind snowblower because it is too risky for buildings and aircraft to try and plow within a few inches of them. Then you have to push the area again because of the snow you just took away from the buildings/aircraft still has to go to the end.

A pickup, especially with a wing plow with the wing on the aircraft/building side angled forward as a fence would be fine for the initial plowing, but I don't know if it would be cheaper to have a relatively cheap box on a loader with a pickup, or a sophisticated plow (angle, with wings) on a loader and forego the pickup. Others on this site might be able to advise you there.

It may be more economical to have the contractor do the initial passes, or even the pushing, but that's why you're doing the math. I don't think anyone but the airport would be interested in a blower or large (12-16 foot) broom.
 
TUPilot;2125619 said:
You suggested using an angle plow in the alleys. Is that due to spillage off of box plow being an issue? - You got it. A pusher box will only load what it can carry, then it spills off both sides. Now you have 2 windrows to work, then you clear one, now you have 3... and so on.

As far as the "driveways"... those are old helipads from the military days. We use them as tie-downs for inactive planes, so there is no urgency to clear them most of the time. We will be putting in some new T-hangars in the open area by the driveways, between the hangar and the access road.
First off... Aero - Picture worth a thousand words... that Google pic helps huge!

OP - I think you can handle this with the right equipment now. Not near as big of a job as I was seeing in my head. The only one runway makes it a piece of cake.

I would lean now towards a 4wd AG tractor to get the majority of the snow gone IMO. Run a powerwing on a front mounted 3 point and a blower on the rear 3 point. You would then be able to blade the runway in no time flat, get it over to the side, spin around and blow it to the infield... one machine. If you choose a powerwing, you also have box ability with the same plow. So as you plow the hanger area, blade it do the middle, then box it out to were you can blow it to the infield again. If you only have budget for one tractor, drop the powerwing or the blower and pick up a broom to do your final cleaning. Take a bit of time, but after a couple of times, you will get the hang of it.

If you have the budget to have a 2nd AG tractor, go front mounted broom for the small snow and rear mounted blower. Blowing is going to be your time killer. It takes quite a bit of time. So you could have one tractor bladeing while the other does the blowing, you will be time ahead.

Complement that with a truck with a v blade or even a Ebling rear blade, and your time could be cut quite a bit. Those little off chutes would be better fit for a pickup than a larger AG tractor. Truck could also be used to windrow runways and clear hangers.

Here is what a powerwing is: (angle plow with box wing ability all from the cab)
 
Discussion starter · #37 ·
FredG;2125716 said:
Would this help? Originally purchased for JFK.
Looks interesting... I don't know about condition or what it takes to keep something like that running.

Certainly some great old equipment out there, but I don't want to risk grabbing up a "deal" that we can't keep running, either due to logistics or the budget. Anyone know how hard it is to keep 70/80s era snowblowers going? What parts availability is like? If special training is required?

Thanks.
 
Discussion starter · #38 ·
Philbilly2;2125660 said:
First off... Aero - Picture worth a thousand words... that Google pic helps huge!

OP - I think you can handle this with the right equipment now. Not near as big of a job as I was seeing in my head. The only one runway makes it a piece of cake.

I
I like the ag tractor idea. Holds two pieces of equipment at a time (vs a wheel loaders one) and more versatile in the summer. How much power and weight do you need to effectively move a 16 foot pusher (or equivalent power blade.)

Thanks!
 
Whiffyspark;2126071 said:
You should be looking for a 125 hp machine. I know someone kind of in your area that has one with two push boxes on his I think. Can't remember if it has blower
I would agree with the 125HP range machine. That sounds appropriate. You will need the HP at the pto to run a large blower. I don't think you will need all of that HP so much for the pushing end, but I could be wrong. Of coarse that will also depend on the box side you choose to run.

I want to say that you could run around a 9ft dual auger blower at 125hp at the PTO - but the tractor guys need to chime in and correct me if I am not correct here.

Most of the newer ag tractors come equipped with a 1000 RPM PTO along with a 540, so you will be good there.
 
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