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Wide-out wings leaking back

Discussion in 'Western Plows Discussion' started by mishnick, Mar 3, 2011.

  1. mishnick

    mishnick 2000 Club Member
    Messages: 2,353

    I have a brand new wide-out where the driver's side wing leaks back as soon as you let go of the extend button. There is a spring in the blade that will pull the wing back in if the oil is allowed to leak out. First I thought it was a bad pressure relief valve (there are two on each wing) but having changed them it made no difference. Tech support said it may be the ram and suggested switching the hoses from side to side but the problem follows the driver's side fluid outlets. That is... when i switched the hoses from left to right the passangers side (that did work) leaked back and the drivers side (that was leaking) held fast so I know it is not the ram. Having looked at the hydraulic schematics I see that there are also two check valves that could be responsible but tech support says "they never fail".

    I have gone through the proceedure to set the PRVs (at 1700 & 1500 psi) the right side sets up fine but the driver's side leaks down immediatly to about 500 psi.

    Anybody have any ideas or experiences with this issue? Thanks in advance....
  2. twinman326

    twinman326 PlowSite.com Addict
    Messages: 1,683

    Now that would sound like a bad check valve.Possible the check valve is not seated or functionally properly.
  3. Drottlawn

    Drottlawn Senior Member
    Messages: 364

    Is it when in scoop, it retracts to straight, or is it when straight it leaks back in to fully retracted? One of mine did this in the scoop, and it was air in the ram. I used it for a storm and it went away. just takes some time to work it out.
  4. mishnick

    mishnick 2000 Club Member
    Messages: 2,353

    It only happens on one side (has done since new) and only goes back to straight from scoop. Have adjusted all the pressure relief valves and examined the check valves. Tech support suggested it may be the ram but when I switched the hoses the problem switched to the oposite ram so it's not the ram or air. When I put the gauges on to test the pressures I found that the good side dropped only to about 1700 psi while the bad side leaked down to between 500 & 700 psi and stayed there even with the pressure relief valves were screwed in to the max. Talking to tech support today they finally decided to swap out the whole hydraulic unit under warranty. We were all expecting it to be either the prv or a check valve. The support guy at Western said they have never had a wide-out with this problem that couldn't be resolved with prv replacement. Oh well, there is a first for everything. I just wish they would contact me after they get the thing back and tear it apart. I would really like to hear that it was a crack in he housing or a bad casting or something. Just so I know I didn't do something wrong.
    Last edited: Mar 4, 2011
  5. Tony350

    Tony350 Senior Member
    Messages: 546

    You really think western would get back to. Makes you a better mechanic the more you know, could save western a while hydraulic unit if it happened again. If you do find out let us know. I am considering a wideout if I ever get a new truck. Probably be at least 3 years with the price of them.
  6. mishnick

    mishnick 2000 Club Member
    Messages: 2,353

    Having worked on it now for about ten hours altogether, doing what I thought I should on my own first and then what the Western tech support guy told me to was invaluable in itself. When I took my plow course the wide-out didn't exist so this was my "education by ordeal." I agree that the feedback would be beneficial, every bit of knowledge helps. Even if it is just to learn that I did something wrong or overlooked something. I will be sure to ask for feedback on the RMA and certainly will post a thread if they get back to me. I like to think that knowlege is power and I am happy to share what little I have to offer.
  7. Matson Snow

    Matson Snow PlowSite.com Addict
    Messages: 1,985

    If its Brand New what doe's the Dealer say.......Why isn't the dealer taking care of this issue.....:confused:
  8. mishnick

    mishnick 2000 Club Member
    Messages: 2,353

    I work at the local Western dealer! I am the one who is trying to make the owner happy. This plow was build by our previous Western mechanic but he wasn't doing a very good job so he isn't with us any more. The Western tech support hit this one on the head... when my sales rep told him this plow didn't work right from the get go he asked "then why did it go out the door at all?" If my predecessor had done his quality control checks this problem would have been noticed and corrected. We didn't know about it until the plow came back with a leaking hose. I fixed that hose and then, as I always do, ran it through a full functionality test at which time I noticed the problem. This whole project has been such a can of worms. The owner actually ordered it last August when my predecessor assembled the plow, then when the new GMC 3500 came we realized that it didn't have the right front suspension to carry the plow so he sent the truck back and waited until late January before the right truck came. Then I did the vehicle portiion of the installation but didn't have the plow to test it. The owner picked up the truck and hooked up the first time on his own. He said if it didn't work he would call. He didn't notice the problem or just assumed it was the snow pushing the wing back. But as I said earlier, we have jumped through all the hoops for Western and they are satisfied that it is a bad valve body so now we are installing a new motor / pump / valve body assembly.

    Sometimes people don't understand that as a dealer we don't decide when to put new parts on. We have to go through Western and they have to authorize the new parts but before they get out their wallets they make us flog the problem and we don't get paid for most of the time spent. For example, on this plow I have spent about ten hours altogether but we will probably get compensated for only two hours. That is the time they say it should take to to the tests that confirm the problem. They don't' pay for any of the tests that didn't resolve the problem or for the parts that we replace in the process of elimination. Then there is that learning curve too. When I took my plow course wide-outs didn't exist so I have to take the time to read the mechanic's manual and figure out what they mean. Western doesn't pay for training time, as they put it. I also have to buy the special tools (in this case two $100 pressure gages) to do the specific tests.

    Personally I don't care about these issues because I am paid by the hour regardless but I have to feel for my sales people who live on commissions. These losses all come out of their pockets. But in the end we all understand that the customers pay all our salaries so the bottom line goal is to satisfy them so they come back right?:nod:
  9. Western1

    Western1 Senior Member
    from MI.
    Messages: 752

    Most likely a issue with the valve body when machined or something related to what you previously mentioned about a crack or void? Wouldn't expect Western to let you know. There should have been tests when the pump was assembled also.
  10. Hysert

    Hysert PlowSite.com Addict
    Messages: 1,676

    Hey Mishnick had the same problem with my right side wing, started last year when i got my wideout new. dealer replaced the wing cylinder and problem was gone, then this year I hit something and blew it again would retract back to straight almost instantly. went back to the dealer and checked the ram it was good, western sent out a new relief valveX2, orings X4, ballsX2 and springX2 for both upper 1700 psi (RV3) and lower 1500 psi (RV4) valves. We removed all the hoses plastic cover unscrewed the valves and reinstald everything... And its working great job took about an hour and is vary simple. incase in the future I need to do it I know how... After all 2 winter warrenty they should cover it no problem dosent matter who did the work!!! If that dosn't help then it is the manifold it self, like in oversized port from machining, However unlikely or just bad luck, and was inspected on a friday at 4:45pm in quality control LOL....
  11. mishnick

    mishnick 2000 Club Member
    Messages: 2,353

    Hysert, intersting that you say your ram was resoponsible for the problem. In my case we swapped left and right hoses and the problem followed so that eliminated the ram. But I am struggling with what in the ram would explain this? Since it is a double acting ram and the displacement of the two ends is different it can't be a leaking pistion seal. If the piston was coming out I could see it but the problem is that the retract spring is pulling the piston in. I know from my training that you if you take an unequel displacemt, double acting ram, fill it with oil and then connect the two hoses to each other you cannot push the piston in because there is nowhere for the extra fluid to go. It creates a hydrostatic lock in effect. So what did they say was wrong with this ram in your case?

    We have gone through all the same steps as you, eliminated the rams, replaced the check valves & associated hardware and even tried switching the two check valves from right side to left but in the end we too concluded it is a manifold. Perhaps a machining problem or a bad casting. Western is giving us a whole new power unit. That is the motor, pump and whole valve body. I worked hand in hand with the Western support guys and I have to say they were very resonable. They just wanted me to verify the problem but in the end they came through for us.
  12. Hysert

    Hysert PlowSite.com Addict
    Messages: 1,676

    Hey Mishnick Good to hear they have come through for ya. I too have never had problems with western warrenty.... As for my ram it was leaking out the rod end ever so little and with that situation the wing retracted slowly with in 30sec to 1min, however when i blew the relief valve it was almost instant!!! your problem sounds to be definatly in the manifold keep us posted when you get the new one instald curious to know the out come Good Luck.... Otherwise I definatly love the wing plows and will probably go with another wideout or a blizzard 8611 when i get another truck and retire my 2500 to a daily driver.tymusic