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Why so many uninformed?

Discussion in 'Ice Management' started by TCLA, Aug 7, 2008.

  1. TCLA

    TCLA 2000 Club Member
    Messages: 2,707

    Just spoke to another management company while asking for an extension regarding their snow bids. I am told the other contractors have submitted theirs along with their salt pricing!! :dizzy:

    The real shocker is I am told their salt pricing hasn't changed from last year!?!?! :eek:

    Are we dealing with not so honest property managers..............or completely uninformed contractors?
    Last edited: Aug 7, 2008
  2. T-MAN

    T-MAN PlowSite.com Addict
    Messages: 1,363

    Many are uninformed.
    I spoke with the management company that handles the 3 banks I do/did (still have 2 years on my contract but there is no way I am holding prices, they already told me there are no increases.)
    They are actually a large Landscape Contractor as well. They only handle sites within 10 miles of there facility's and manage/sub the rest.
    They use about 10,000 tons a year. They have no written agreement for salt, but there supplier is promising them they will fill there order, at tops of $95 a ton. I think its BS. I have heard of Muni's at $100 a ton ! Rumor has it that the Chicago land area will be screwed the hardest this year :rolleyes::bluebounc
    There supplier sells 35% of there bulk to them.
    I see a big **** storm coming down the pipe here.
    There still bidding, and contracts signed before the end of the month will have no caps on salt pricing. They got balls of steel thats for sure. I guess thats why there growing 65% every year.
  3. gd8boltman

    gd8boltman Senior Member
    Messages: 328

    Municipalities near me are paying

    $44.00 per ton, an increase of 15%. The difference seems to be that they are only recieving one allocation, and they need to take their entire order for the season prior to October 15th, no more two orders per season. In the mean time I still do not have my price locked in yet, but it seems to be apporx. $ 73.00/ton delivered and a $85.50 fuel surcharge per load. I am told that they will lock in my price and available quantity as soon as they fulfill quoting their Municipal Customer base, which will occur in the next 15 days.
  4. TCLA

    TCLA 2000 Club Member
    Messages: 2,707

    You don't need brain power to have balls of steel................although 65% growth is very impressive.

    What do you mean by "no caps on salt pricing"? Is the contractor stating that his salt charge could increase to the customer during the life of the contract? No balls or brain required if that's the case...........just customer approval.

    A muni around here is locked in for $41.00 a ton for 2 years, with another at $90.00!
    Things now are just wacko!
  5. JD Dave

    JD Dave PlowSite Fanatic
    Messages: 11,194

    I think what they are doing is either dropping less salt, or billing out more salt then was spread, to make up the price difference. It not hard to influence your salt price in your favour, if you like doing buisness that way.
  6. T-MAN

    T-MAN PlowSite.com Addict
    Messages: 1,363

    Evidently there new contracts are showing salt surcharges as well now on some of these larger property's they handle. So a cap if you will on pricing. Our salt started at $50 a ton last season and in Feb. there were paying $185 to bring in loads from Pa, and WV. They use about 250 tons a storm so you can easily see the losses they took for each event that was already price locked. There new contracts written this year will have a clause that states if the **** hits the fan again the customer will incur up charges to cover there loses. But if they sign now they will pull that clause and roll the dice.
    There were some big time out fits here that crashed late last season, alot of large sites are up for grabs if you can show you have the financial strength, and equipment to get these sites cleared and salted there ripe for the picking.

    These guys did
    600k in 05-06
    1.2 mil in 06-07
    2.0 mil last season
    Just snow, green work was not included. Its impressive, I have watched them grow.
  7. TCLA

    TCLA 2000 Club Member
    Messages: 2,707

    I understand you now T-MAN. No problem relating to their dilemma. The bidders I am speaking of are not in the same class. I have a belief they are uninformed and ignorant to the changes that are happening this year.............which will make the per ton rate in this area more difficult to get to where it needs to be.
    Last edited: Aug 8, 2008
  8. T-MAN

    T-MAN PlowSite.com Addict
    Messages: 1,363

    I feel your pain, in the same boat here. I am leaning heavily towards a liquid program to control costs. Tired of this crap.
  9. rblake

    rblake Senior Member
    from dayton
    Messages: 293

    Thinking about getting into liquids this year. I have used sugar beet products for the past 7 years but only adding to my bulk salt. Thinking about maybe a salt brine machine and adding sugar beet to it.
  10. T-MAN

    T-MAN PlowSite.com Addict
    Messages: 1,363

    That is what I am looking into as well. There are suppliers who sell it pre-mixed.
  11. elite1msmith

    elite1msmith 2000 Club Member
    from chicago
    Messages: 2,762

    i got to thinking abou the liquid things the other day

    you know whats funny, the operational over head cost, is MUCH cheaper than spreading bulk... the spray system is cheap

    all you need is a bulk tank, or 55 gal drums, and a trasfer pump, to load it into ur truck

    no, skidsteer required,
    no jams, or chunky frozzen salt
    and if its cold outside , you can just add a little more calcuim to your brine mix i belive
  12. T-MAN

    T-MAN PlowSite.com Addict
    Messages: 1,363

    You have to be very carefull what you add to the brine. You can create a skating rink in no time as well.
    15% is about the max you can add of anything.
    Beat juice, magic, or Ice Ban will probally be my choice of additive. I have 200 gallons of Ice Ban, and about 30 gallons of magic left to play with.
    You are correct about low overhead as well. From a cost standpoint bulk salt at $50 a ton is cheaper. If we hit $95-105 and up per ton, the liquid will be cheaper.
    Brine costs next to nothing to make. The additives are not to bad either, when mixing at only 15%.
    I need to do a lil more research, and it will probably be a go.
  13. elite1msmith

    elite1msmith 2000 Club Member
    from chicago
    Messages: 2,762

    Iv been looking into it as an alternative, just in case

    and also to conserve the bulk salt that we do get... i would rather pre teat with this stuff

    someone posted a thread , i think a month ago, and had a link to a state set up, it was a good web page, i think they said the VERY max you can do is 21% salt by weight vs water weight

    so what i figured was to mix it up at the max rate, or buy it that way

    then play chemist and see what i come up with..... if you know foresure that its gonna be a warm night , then you can add , alittle more water to "cheapen" up the mix, and if its gonna get cold, then add ur beat juice... but alot of try/error stuff
  14. JD Dave

    JD Dave PlowSite Fanatic
    Messages: 11,194

    Just so you know, the most salt you can get in 100 g of water is 23 lbs and with Mag it's around 30 lbs. So your right at around 21% by weight.
  15. T-MAN

    T-MAN PlowSite.com Addict
    Messages: 1,363

    I believe Brine is 23.3% for the sodium brine, no less, no more. Then that mix would be cut with up to 15% beat juice etc.
    The problem with just anti-icing with the liquid is your still committed to the expense of a "spray rig", the inside storage etc. If you have the space for a brine setup, storage, and the added expenses then it might not be a big deal. If your running plenty of trucks, and have one you can commit to just a spray rig then more power to ya. A pickup is not going to pre-treat 30 acres so you almost need a dedicated truck ready to roll, with either access to easily accessible mix, or a big enough truck to get it done.
    We all know the liquids can work, its just a matter of implementing it, and taking the time to research and make it happen. An anti-icing program is key to making it work. Liquid Mag is a pretty risky, and seems to have the most issues with undesirable results.
  16. SnowMatt13

    SnowMatt13 PlowSite.com Addict
    Messages: 1,559


    You are right on the brine %.
    If you want a educational conversation on mixing call the maintenance super. at the McHenry County DOT, Mark DeVries.
    They created their own mix called Super Mix.
    Uses 85% brine, 10% cal-chloride, 5%geo melt (I think I got the % right and the names..)
    We are going to use a mix similar to theirs in addition to our straight brine this year.
  17. elite1msmith

    elite1msmith 2000 Club Member
    from chicago
    Messages: 2,762

    yeah i have heard that, my neibor works for them , i might have to take a look,

    making a "super mix" is a good idea.... but i think i would just as likely have a "cheap mix" as well for those warm days.... depends on the price difference per gal