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When you sub... how much do you take?

Discussion in 'Commercial Snow Removal' started by Ramairfreak98ss, Jan 29, 2009.

  1. Ramairfreak98ss

    Ramairfreak98ss PlowSite.com Addict
    Messages: 1,931

    Recent situation, but nothing new...

    One of the companies we sub a few properties from, calls us last night 7:30pm, tells us that they want the properties salted in the morning... between 4-6am.

    First of all, the time of salting was not going to matter from about 9pm last night, to 8am this morning until the stores opened. We were planning to go out by 10pm to start our routes salting to be done by 5-6am.

    This is the same company that gets the work from Lipinskis which gives them the notification for the properties. Then they tell me "again" we have to go back AFTER 8am to get the stores managers to sign a signature invoice for each salting ... the salting that would be done between 4-6am.

    Now, would you honestly EVER go out after a major storm, you, your employees have 15-40 hours in the last couple days with the last storm, and i myself have not slept for almost 2 days, go out within their specifications JUST because thats what THEY want? I think its a crock. Not only the time, but then having to salt our routes, go BACK to the same areas to salt this companies specific few places and then go BACK again to have sheets signed?

    I've already notified them in the past that we will NOT go back to stores to get signatures if they are not open at the time of service, i already am doing a favor to sign anything since this isnt in any of our contracts we signed in october 08. A half hour later, they call back, stating the company canceled the salting approval for the morning ..wtf? I think he didnt like it that he was going to have to send one of his own guys out to get "my" signatures after 8am so he just told me to not salt the places then.

    Im about a hairline away from dropping ALL of their accounts now just because theyre jerking us around now, they owe us a lot of money from landscape jobs LAST spring that still arnt paid, they promised pallets of salt in compensation for the late non-payment and then have only given us 5 skids of salt when we would have needed 20. I missed our truckload early pricing or better bracket wholesale prices that i could have gotten on my own in Oct 08, and so now we are paying 1-2$ MORE per bag of rock salt

    This is the same company that subbed us 4 larger properties "hourly" and gave us per bag prices for applying rock salt and calcium to sidewalks, then so far this year never called us for them. I dedicated a whole 2006 F350 ford truck, 9' plow, driver and laborer to this route only to find out they lost one account in Dec 08, Brickmans was salting the other place and never heard about the last couple. We've NEVER done a service to them this year and have been out over 15 times so far for at least salting.

    What kind of relationships do you have between your sub contractors if its your account or if you take subbed work, how are they on the other end?
  2. IMAGE

    IMAGE Sponsor
    Messages: 1,747

    As much as you ***** about these guys, I'd drop em. It's not worth the hassle. On Jan 1st I dropped a customer that was 23% of my december gross(of a two truck route). It kind of sucks having spare time now, but I sure feel a whole lot better not having to deal with them anymore as they were a PITA. These guys your dealing with seem even worse, I for one would of dropped em long ago.
  3. forestfireguy

    forestfireguy PlowSite.com Addict
    Messages: 1,276

    Like anything else in business or life for that matter, you have to balance if the benefit(money in this case) id worth the grief. There's obviously lots of levels of grief possible. I'm certainly not sticking up for them but, maybe they had a reason to want treatments before 6 am ? Is it in their contract to have ice treatments done by 6 when possible? Certain storms thats a good idea. I did it this morning, finished up pushing slush yesterday around 2pm was up since 1am, was still pouring rain, salt would have been a waste. Went out 8pm to clean up parked in spots and the other "little stuff". It was getting pretty cold but things weren't frozen solid yet, finished pushing off everything, bout 130 am as it was really getting cold and things were freezing fast, salted the high traffic stuff as it was cleaned up, left others for the morning, figured if I did it last night there was a chance of refreeze during the night, got down to bout 20 here. Did a full round at 430am all trucks all sites. Seemed prudent to have fresh salt on things not long before people started moving on stuff.
    Last edited: Jan 29, 2009
  4. lawnboy11

    lawnboy11 Senior Member
    Messages: 263

    did same for storm almost- was out 4:30 am till 1:30 pm then slept, got up this am and ran out and did salt run to melt all the new ice since late last night-
  5. iceyman

    iceyman 2000 Club Member
    Messages: 2,925

    y do you continue to work for someone who owes you bills from almost a year ago.... then you wonder y they are jerking you around..... run away.... run as fast as you can
  6. hydro_37

    hydro_37 PlowSite Veteran
    from iowa
    Messages: 3,790

    Drop them but I will also bet you will have a very HARD time getting the money they owe you. Small claims court is a great option.
  7. BigDave12768

    BigDave12768 PlowSite.com Addict
    Messages: 1,446

    I would go back and get signatures. But I would inform them that they are on clock for 65/hr sub rate for truck.
  8. Ramairfreak98ss

    Ramairfreak98ss PlowSite.com Addict
    Messages: 1,931

    Forest fire... maybe i just dont understand, but if there is a little icing up overnight, slicks spots, glazing, and say the lot is salted at mid night, if the salt starts to melt at mid night, your saying it will melt then freeze up again before say 8am?

    If its cold enough out overnight, and the salt is in-effective at the temps until the earlier morning hours say around 8am when the sun is out again, the salt should then melt anyway, how many times is it ONLY effective to salt right before the sun comes up?

    When the salt melts the ice, it should puddle into a brine mixture on the parking lots, wouldn't it have to be really cold out to re-freeze that brine mixture instead of just straight water that already froze earlier?
  9. Ramairfreak98ss

    Ramairfreak98ss PlowSite.com Addict
    Messages: 1,931

    Yeah i know! Well legally we'd be screwed i believe because nothing states we'd get reimbursed or paid for this extra work in our contract with them.

    They supposedly tried to negotiate some deal with the other company to reimburse $20 an hour or something to go back and get signatures...nothing came of it, im sure they denied t and i will not waste my time for $20 an hour anyway. Even if i have to send my drivers back if it wasn't myself, thats $18-$26 an hour pay for the drivers PLUS gas, truck wear and tear etc since theyre loaded with salt, spreaders etc. :(

    I worked with this company last year, not breaking the banks down with the work but it was profitable and agreed to take work from them this season. Last year went fairly smooth from start to finish. This year i have more to manage, more trucks, much better and bigger accounts, more drivers, more paychecks to cut and much more to lose. Nothing has gone smoothly with them this year right from the start when they waited all the way until the last couple days of Oct 08 to finally "almost" give me confirmed sites for service. I signed the first contract with them Nov 19th, changed, dropped some, added different areas in December 2nd and then they removed one on December 16th, a large hourly place.

    January 16th i terminated all stores in one area on our one trucks route 100% dedicated to their work, 2 on another trucks route and 3 big places on another trucks route. It wasnt like "I' made the call and now have to deal with the loss of income for these sites. 90% of the contracted properties we never serviced by that January 16th point in time when we did 11-15 salt services at other local businesses. We didnt lose anything on my accountability.

    As far as payment terms go, they were pretty on time last year, 45 day term from the service date, and they paid generally between 30-40 on all services. This year, we started services for them 12-20-08, Its now 1-30-09 and although i talk to them every few days, they have made no mention that checks were going out on such and such day like they would inform me about last year. Then again, were 40 days out from ALL of our 45 day net accounts and zero have payments to us as of today.