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The great debate on salt and concrete

Discussion in 'Ice Management' started by WIPensFan, Jan 3, 2010.

  1. WIPensFan

    WIPensFan PlowSite Veteran
    Messages: 3,594

    Tell me why or why not to put rocksalt on concrete.
  2. EGLC

    EGLC PlowSite.com Addict
    Messages: 1,733

    when every paver company says not to use it on their pavers I think that is reason enough
  3. WIPensFan

    WIPensFan PlowSite Veteran
    Messages: 3,594

    Aren't clay pavers supposed to be able to handle salt? Or am I thinking of something else?
  4. cretebaby

    cretebaby PlowSite Veteran
    Messages: 4,162

    So......why not on a concrete driveway?
  5. JohnnyU

    JohnnyU 2000 Club Member
    Messages: 2,040

    They key thing to rememeber here is proper application rates.

    Anything used for de-icing (altering the freezing temperature of water, or in this case the snow/ice on the pavement) can and will destroy pavement and concrete due to increasing the freeze/thaw cycles. As I said, it all comes down to applying said de-icer properly.
  6. cretebaby

    cretebaby PlowSite Veteran
    Messages: 4,162

    Not necessarily.

    Using a deicer can very easily reduce or eliminate refreeze.
  7. JohnnyU

    JohnnyU 2000 Club Member
    Messages: 2,040

    The melting temperature can be reduced based on the concentration of the salt in solution. A weaker concentration will have less affect on the melting temperature than a stronger concentration. Hence the reason that more salt is required as the temperature decreases.

    The problem arises when enough salt is used to melt off the snow, but creates a melting temperature that is close to that of the pavement temperature. If day/night thermal cycles pass that temperature, you end up with a daily freeze/thaw cycle which will inevitably result in damage to the pavement. Increasing the solution concentration would help lower the melting point and prevent refreezing.

    Salt (NaCl), MagCloride (MgCl), and Calcium Chloride (CaCl) all have different melting points when in solution. The concentrations required to reach a certain MP will be different for each compound.
  8. Bajak

    Bajak Senior Member
    Messages: 999

    Put it on the concrete because if you put it on the grass it will kill it.
  9. Mark Oomkes

    Mark Oomkes PlowSite Fanatic
    Messages: 13,256

    No, it isn't.

    "All" the scientists and politicians are telling us that manmade global warming is true, do you believe it?

    Patently false.

    Sorry Johnny, you are wrong.

    Wrong again.

    And I can prove it by looking out my window. The county I live in has idiots in the Road Commission. They apply the same amount of salt per lane mile at 30* when the sun is coming out as the middle of Jan when the temp is 10* and it is snowing at an inch per hour. So by your statement, our concrete highways would be reduced to gravel by now.

    Salt WILL NOT harm properly installed and cured concrete. Even the link you posted from the Salt Institute says that.

    Or maybe I'm just dang lucky because I have yet to have a customer fault me with destroying their concrete by using salt or any other de-icer in the past 20 years, have to ask my father if he had any before that, we started salting in '79 so we should have some history of problems if your statements are accurate.


    Not if he used Beat juice.
  10. JohnnyU

    JohnnyU 2000 Club Member
    Messages: 2,040

    You've obviosuly never driven on our Illinois roads. In many cases, gravel would be an improvement. :dizzy:

    That being said, I don't buy into the 'salt use will ruin concrete' when both are properly installed and applied. It's when you have people that literally 'gravel' a parking lot with salt or it is poorly finished that I beleive causes the problems.
    Last edited: Jan 4, 2010
  11. EGLC

    EGLC PlowSite.com Addict
    Messages: 1,733

    I guess I'll have to take some pictures for you guys to see what rock salt does to natural stone and pavers.

    And yah I do believe the companies Mark. Just because science is now political, especailly with global warming doesn't mean I give up on everything that is said :laughing: I mean seriously buddy not everything in the world is a conspiracy lmao....the paver companies and calcuim chloride companys are not having secret meetings and coming up with accusations to put out the rock salt industry.

    I don't see what the big deal is anyway. I buy my calcuim chloride for like $11/50LB bag, I know I make a hell of a lot more then then $11 on my concrete drives, pavers and natural stone for applying de-icing materials and can upsell the calcuim because its safer.
  12. DJ Contracting

    DJ Contracting PlowSite.com Addict
    Messages: 1,392

    Gee I better stop putting salt on my driveway then, these last 12 years of putting salt on might damage my twenty year old driveway, oh by the way the driveway still look good no pitting or chipping...ummm maybe I'll stop dropping my heavy plow on it also and use a shovel? Come on guys use common sense when you apply.
  13. toby4492

    toby4492 2000 Club Member
    Messages: 2,513

    15 yr old Florida girls, you are all so opinionated :rolleyes::D
  14. Matson Snow

    Matson Snow PlowSite.com Addict
    Messages: 1,985

    These Threads are like Beating you head against a wall....TORTURE!!!!!...:dizzy::dizzy:
  15. TCLA

    TCLA 2000 Club Member
    Messages: 2,707

    Salt does not hurt pavers....

    Please do........even then I might not believe it.

    You see, we have a large pad of pavers directly in front of two of our salt bins. They have been in place for many years. We used left over remnants from paver jobs so this pad consists of just about every flavor of paver and paver manufacture. Piles of salt live on top of this pad......short doubles grind in the salt as this is the pivot point for their axles before they dump in the bins. Large loaders continually scrapes salt off them to load trucks. Piles of salt here and there partying all winter long on these pavers. You couldn't find a more adverse environment for pavers than this pad. Oh, and it was also never sealed.

    During the Spring, Summer & Fall you can inspect these all you want and will find ZERO adverse affect from the salt.
  16. Matson Snow

    Matson Snow PlowSite.com Addict
    Messages: 1,985

    Roads are crap because.....Highway and road construction are a BILLION dollar business and employ Alot of people ..They are made to fail...Can we say STIMULUS...payup
  17. WIPensFan

    WIPensFan PlowSite Veteran
    Messages: 3,594

    TCLA, how about a picture of that?
  18. TCLA

    TCLA 2000 Club Member
    Messages: 2,707

    Let me see what I can do.........I'm swamped with paperwork right now.....but I will post it.

    :::even though you are a Penguins fan:::::p
  19. Matson Snow

    Matson Snow PlowSite.com Addict
    Messages: 1,985

    Me Too...Im swamped...:laughing::dizzy:
  20. WIPensFan

    WIPensFan PlowSite Veteran
    Messages: 3,594

    I have a lot of unused pavers sitting out back of my shop and have always thought about doing something like what you said you have. Just wondering what it would look like. Also interested to see it under a salt pile!

    Paperwork?...WTF is that!

    Pens have lost 5 straight :cry: You should be :laughing: