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Subcontracting for a National Provider

18K views 220 replies 20 participants last post by  FredG 
#1 ·
I have seen a lot of ill will on these blogs towards National Providers. My impression is that some of it is earned and some is just misunderstanding on the part of the poster. I am hoping to hear from everyone about a positive experience with a National and/or what could they do to win you over and make you excited about working for one.
 
#3 ·
Why do we need nationals?
 
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#4 ·
Good question. It isn't that you need nationals but the clients with multiple sites need nationals to aggregate the service. They do not have the resources to go out to the market and secure snow services for dozens or hundreds of sites. Nor do they have the resources or expertise to oversee the work. They look to a national to facilitate that for them.
 
#7 ·
Question, How does a vendor oversee the site. Last I new the Contractor provided the man power, Equipment, Materials and liability's. What does the Vendor do when the contractor packs up with no notice for non payment. Do you want to be the guy they call??? Don't tell me you would not have questions to why the other guy quit.

Clients hire you (contractor) as a professional service and should not need anybody to oversee there performance. It's your liability's if the parking lot is safe.

What resources do you need? You could just go to Homeadvisor and hire a guy that has been FBI checked, checked for leans, Credit checked and reviews from clients that contractors that have done this type of work for.
 
#6 ·
o_O
 
#8 ·
I think this can be a good and helpful discussion if we allow it to be...I give him credit for coming here and asking what can be done, on the nationals end, to win you over and potentially, work for them

that being said, let's keep the conversation decent and on point and offer your suggestions

thanks, all
 
#11 ·
Sorry but I just smell a troll fishing
 
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#12 ·
We do a couple jobs through a nsp and have had good luck so far but it does make me a little nervous. I don't understand when you say these companies don't have the resources to do this. They have store managers don't they? If that manager doesn't know if the lot needs more salt or was not plowed correctly needs the grass cut or mulching done then that person should not be there. Each location is different, one might get more snow or need the lawn cut later into the season and this where I don't feel it's right for someone 600 miles away to be dictating this work.
 
#17 ·
Thanks for your comments. Let me give you an example of what I mean by limited resources. There are 2 areas. Let's say you had a quick oil change business with 200 locations spread out over 11 states. If you were to go directly to the market to look for direct contractors it would be a huge project. You would want 3 bids per site - 200 bids. You would get about 50% response so you would need to reach out to 400 companies. This would be done once per year and would require a lot of work. Probably not worth it for a company that understands the oil change business and NOT the snow business. The second area is the over-site. Yes you have store managers. They know nothing about snow removal. They cannot hold the contractor accountable. Maybe you want them to concentrate on running the business and not on managing contractors. Overall your cost for taking on all of this "in-house" might amount to 20% of your total snow spend. Maybe you decide you would rather pay an NSP a 15% mark up to do it instead.
I also don't think it is right to manage snow from 600 miles away. That is the kind of thing I was asking about when I posted this question.
 
#13 ·
o_O o_O :terribletowel:I think I will close this one out on my own. Someone is trying with a big spoon to stir the sauce. Sounds to me by your responses that you don't need our advice. Nsp's are great and should make you very successful. I would definitely not pass on any opportunity to do biz with a NSP. This is the future, Hook up with one as soon as possible. Good Luck. Thumbs Up
 
#16 ·
Sorry you feel this way. Apparently you have gotten burned before and I was hoping to hear about some of that because I don't feel like the current status is good for the business. In no way did I post to "stir the pot". Although you were being sarcastic, the future will include NSP's because that's what the client base is asking for.
 
#26 ·
And don't get me wrong, I understand the need for a National... don't like it, but understand it. That is called delegating. Bigger corp delegates to a smaller corp, that corp delegates to a smaller yet corp and so on and so on till it gets down to the little guys... typically someone in there makes it bad for the last guy... just saying...
 
#27 ·
I'm all for honest opinions for him as he is the one asking what can be done to make it better and "win you guys over" to "potentially" do work for Nationals...we all know that it just won't happen for some, however, give the guy your thoughts and opinions on what they should do to make it better for the sub-contractor. posting popcorn smileys, hating on the guy, etc. isn't going to do that is all I'm saying...so yes, I see both sides as I always try to do
 
#29 ·
So as I said, that I had nothing nice to say currently, so I did not say anything at all, (which I believe is MJD 101) but the popcorn smiley is my way of saying that people are listening to what he is saying and now that is wrong here?

It is tough to be "nice" about an issue that has plagued the industry over the years and made many of us get out of an industry that they enjoy due to not being able to work for these nationals. They squash the small guy and do not have any feelings about it.
 
#31 ·
gotcha...an there's no reason it shouldn't make it through the night as every can be decent and civil and post their thoughts and opinions, etc. or just not post to it. again, I think this is a good thing as everyone on here always bashes the NSP's so why not give opinions on how/what to do to make it worthwhile to sub for them
 
#42 ·
I think he IS a national. Probably burned to many bridges and needs to find out how to fix it. IMO of course
 
#46 ·
Allan want some real experience issues to work on...

Pay...
If the terms are 30, 60, 90 and the contractor agrees to those terms, then pay them on the agreed terms. Don't drag them out.

These apps...
Some of the best guys in the snow plowing industry cannot figure out these apps that you have to use... yet alone don't have a smart phone. I understand we are in a world of technology, but there needs to be some other way to report for the guys that cannot figure out the apps.

And the one that is my biggest reason that I have a tough time dealing with Nationals... I can't look you in the eye and shake your hand when I meet you to get a read on if I am going to get stiffed or not.
You can tell a lot about the character of a man by the look in his eye as you shake his hand...

Which to the above, makes it harder for me to show up on your door step when I don't get paid...
 
#47 ·
Allan want some real experience issues to work on...

Pay...
If the terms are 30, 60, 90 and the contractor agrees to those terms, then pay them on the agreed terms. Don't drag them out.

These apps...
Some of the best guys in the snow plowing industry cannot figure out these apps that you have to use... yet alone don't have a smart phone. I understand we are in a world of technology, but there needs to be some other way to report for the guys that cannot figure out the apps.

And the one that is my biggest reason that I have a tough time dealing with Nationals... I can't look you in the eye and shake your hand when I meet you to get a read on if I am going to get stiffed or not.
You can tell a lot about the character of a man by the look in his eye as you shake his hand...

Which to the above, makes it harder for me to show up on your door step when I don't get paid...
Phil, Thanks for the suggestions.
I agree and I think pay is probably the biggest thing. Shorter terms would be a big plus and everyone should get paid on time. This business is hard enough without worrying about having the money to pay your employees, subs and suppliers.

I also would rather shake your hand and meet face to face. I try and do this with each sub I hire because I also want to get a read on them. It's really also about respect isn't it.

The technology is a big thing. The clients want service verification. How do we do that. These days a smart phone is as essential as a shovel.
 
#49 ·
Well, So you are working for a vendor, Why did you just not state this in your opening post. If you want good Contractors, Pay on time, Do not have a 16 page contract and you should be fine. Also you are not answering some direct questions.

If our advice or comments are worthless and we made such on mess of the site why are you wasting our time. You need to offer up what your company is doing and how your contractors are treated. Did you honestly think we did not know you were a vendor from your opening post.
 
#60 ·
To me he sounded like he worked for a national from the start. After reading his first post I assumed the M stood for management. I feel like he's at least trying. Just giving him experiences good or bad doesn't mean he's going make you personally work for him.

To be honest, like it or not, nationals are not going away. To a business with many chains throughout the country, to have one company that handles all your needs for every location is something they will always want. I have never personally worked for a national company, but that is mainly because of the bad reputation they have. I also don't like not being able to meet you in person, when you're across the country from me it's too easy for me to get screwed. Payment is a big issue also. Some of these guys have been screwed out of A LOT of money. Depending on the company, if they don't get paid for a winter season they could go out of business. In the world of technology, like you say, you should be able to direct deposit what is owed within days of getting paperwork.

Another thing, guys don't like losing money to a middle man. If you're going to make 15% off the top, then make 15% off the top of what a real business needs to make to survive for the winter, not some BS number you think is appropriate that only some guy who's barely a business anyway thinks is okay. I know a few retail managers who at the store level HATE the national companies, because they hire idiots who do a half ass job.

I think, if you're doing this for the right reasons, you can help the business. There has been another guy on here recently basically asking the same questions. If the NSPs are realizing it's going in the wrong direction and they have a bad reputation amongst contractors, maybe things can change. It will be hard getting serious guys to be the guinea pigs though.
 
#64 ·
these guys are very protective of each other and the site so telling them this isn't a resource and attacking them (whether provoked or not) isn't going to win them over or change their minds...that being said, I can close this or we can move forward, be decent towards one another and give facts regarding what you want/expect in being a sub to better the process and industry as a whole.

as a few mentioned, the nationals aren't going anywhere so what do we say we start fresh from here?
 
#67 ·
Hi I'm ----- from this company. I've read about some negative reviews you guys have about nationals. I am starting up a maintenance company and would like some info as to why...... . Holy cow batman how hard was that? Why couldn't you state your intentions from th start as I asked? Why should WE guess as to who you are, where your from and your TRUE intentions? You claim 40 years, you should know what it's like to be burned and taken advantage of. We were wanting some answers but think skin national can't take it.
 
#68 ·
As I said, move on so we can have a discussion and maybe it can clear some things up instead of you guys always complaining about Nationals...so, AGAIN, enough with the finger pointing, name calling, complaining whose fault it is etc., etc.
 
#73 ·
Interesting thread. I can appreciate Allan's question. It's a basic question. What I don't understand is that he doesn't already seem to know the basic answers. He has enough experience based on his time in the industry.

What I can't appreciate Allan is your frustration, and how you chose to respond to the group. You don't see the opportunity, or have learned something in what you may be considering negative responses. These are their concerns. Look beyond their delivery and focus on what their problem is, and what you can do to solve it and win them over so they are excited about working for you. This is your question, right? Also understand not everyone here will be your cup of tea, or will be be a viable potential service provider for you.

If you really need it more spelled out, you need to;
*Have a vetting process
*Form a relationship with your service provider
*Create a fair contract, with fair term and conditions
*Create an easy and friendly service verification process


Don't;
*Treat your service providers with distance or disrespect
*Have an egregious, overly broad one sided, unfair indemnification clause
*Have thin skin

To get upset and claim "almost all of you guys" make this site a poor resource is a bunch of bull...you just fail to see the value. You got emotional and snarky with the group. You still have an opportunity here as long as you can keep your emotions in check and not take yourself so seriously. If you can't win people over you will struggle in your new venture.
 
#80 ·
Interesting thread. I can appreciate Allan's question. It's a basic question. What I don't understand is that he doesn't already seem to know the basic answers. He has enough experience based on his time in the industry.

What I can't appreciate Allan is your frustration, and how you chose to respond to the group. You don't see the opportunity, or have learned something in what you may be considering negative responses. These are their concerns. Look beyond their delivery and focus on what their problem is, and what you can do to solve it and win them over so they are excited about working for you. This is your question, right? Also understand not everyone here will be your cup of tea, or will be be a viable potential service provider for you.

If you really need it more spelled out, you need to;
*Have a vetting process
*Form a relationship with your service provider
*Create a fair contract, with fair term and conditions
*Create an easy and friendly service verification process

Don't;
*Treat your service providers with distance or disrespect
*Have an egregious, overly broad one sided, unfair indemnification clause
*Have thin skin

To get upset and claim "almost all of you guys" make this site a poor resource is a bunch of bull...you just fail to see the value. You got emotional and snarky with the group. You still have an opportunity here as long as you can keep your emotions in check and not take yourself so seriously. If you can't win people over you will struggle in your new venture.
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