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Discussion Starter · #3 ·
Dead vegetation
meh...thats mundane.

IVe seen some weird stuff over the years, but I became aware of a lot that has some WILD freeze/thaw undulations in it, in mid winter...temps well below freezing and sustained like that for months; and supposed theses wild undulations are due to salt applications.
It's hard to "see" (not very photogenic) but if you drive over it with your truck its a definite "what the...." moment.

It wasn't like that this summer.
Granted we had a big earth quake a few months ago, but if it was earthquake damage youd think someone would have noted that problem immediately after that event.

The real question is anyone ever seen large portions of a parking lot shift like that while the ground is still frozen due to salt applications?

It's not my lot, so I dont know how much salt exactly, other than I have observed lots being over applied in other parts of town, so I can "guess" that the amounts are similar.
 

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A few years ago we pretty much had a double winter, no real thaws like usual and pretty cold. One road here, the curb side lane was all wacked out by the end of winter - was it the road warming up during the day and freezing at night, salt or who knows....
 

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meh...thats mundane.

IVe seen some weird stuff over the years, but I became aware of a lot that has some WILD freeze/thaw undulations in it, in mid winter...temps well below freezing and sustained like that for months; and supposed theses wild undulations are due to salt applications.
It's hard to "see" (not very photogenic) but if you drive over it with your truck its a definite "what the...." moment.

It wasn't like that this summer.
Granted we had a big earth quake a few months ago, but if it was earthquake damage youd think someone would have noted that problem immediately after that event.

The real question is anyone ever seen large portions of a parking lot shift like that while the ground is still frozen due to salt applications?

It's not my lot, so I dont know how much salt exactly, other than I have observed lots being over applied in other parts of town, so I can "guess" that the amounts are similar.
I'm not convinced this is the salts fault as much as it is a bad base...
I have 2 lots that do this, both are a light asphalt layer on top of a base coat mixed with clay . Poor prep means moisture and movement underneath
 

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Discussion Starter · #9 ·
A few years ago we pretty much had a double winter, no real thaws like usual and pretty cold. One road here, the curb side lane was all wacked out by the end of winter - was it the road warming up during the day and freezing at night, salt or who knows....
Did it eventually go back to normal or close to it once it did thaw?
 

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Discussion Starter · #10 ·
I'm not convinced this is the salts fault as much as it is a bad base...
I have 2 lots that do this, both are a light asphalt layer on top of a base coat mixed with clay . Poor prep means moisture and movement underneath
Possible
The area it's in which is called sand lake is a swampy area
Or was before it was developed
This is the first year salt had been used there on this lot and the first year I've been aware of it heaving like this

I just heard about it through the grapevine and thought I'd go check it out... thinking "oh someone is exaggerating" until I go there and it was a honest holy **** burgers.

I'm no seismic or geological guru
But we had a major earthquake right before the onset of our serious winter weather
Followed by a month that had noticeable aftershocks (4.0-6.0)

I'm thinking the area which is already known for bad soil added with earthquakes has moved around normally loose material that can't resettle because it gets above the frost line and freezes (allotting for the very large bumps and hills in the parking lot)
Or it has tapped a spring or water table and basically the same thing has happened.

But like I said ... I'm just taking a scientific wild azz guess at it.

I can see concrete and asphalt damage from over application and vegetation die back and possible water shed contamination... but I thought this kind of heaving couldn't be salt.
It's just a coincidence both things are new this winter (IMO)
It'll be interesting to see how much of it resettles come break up season.

Any way I just wondered if anyone else had ever come across something like that and had salt been blamed for it?
 

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Discussion Starter · #14 ·
It's the base of the blacktop not the salt. For Gods sake if that was the case we would not have any good roads or parking areas. Could also be there is no under drain around the parking area.
The customer is convinced it's the salt
They've ordered the contractor to not use salt anymore
It's not ME saying it's salt

There's a decent element around here that's opposed to/distrustful of salt applications
, add on the fact that the majority of contractors now using it aren't experienced in its use and they tend to exude that lack of knowledge/experience when engaged in conversations about it.

Like I said, it's only been used here for about 4 years,,, as recently as 2016 the general consensus was "it's too expensive, it won't work, none will but this service, it won't catch on"

It's like trying to convince your grand parents to use email and take an Uber to their doctors appointment.
Any excuse in the world, including voodoo why it won't work and the world will end if they try.

Salt here is basically witchcraft
 

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Even water heaving damage it will never be right on blacktop, It won't settle correctly, blacktop does not bridge. If it was konkcrete with reinforcement you got a better shot. at least it will bridge for a while but never be right either.

It's all about compaction. The final layer of blacktop etc is the easy part. :laugh:
 

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Discussion Starter · #16 ·
Even water heaving damage it will never be right on blacktop, It won't settle correctly, blacktop does not bridge. If it was konkcrete with reinforcement you got a better shot. at least it will bridge for a while but never be right either.

It's all about compaction. The final layer of blacktop etc is the easy part. :laugh:
The real question is 1) how did it heave that much in the middle of the winter (there hasn't been a freeze/thaw cycle) and 2) why now ... the parking lot is not a recent one
And maybe 3) why THAT much? It's close to 2 feet difference in some areas from normal
 

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The customer is convinced it's the salt
They've ordered the contractor to not use salt anymore
It's not ME saying it's salt

There's a decent element around here that's opposed to/distrustful of salt applications
, add on the fact that the majority of contractors now using it aren't experienced in its use and they tend to exude that lack of knowledge/experience when engaged in conversations about it.

Like I said, it's only been used here for about 4 years,,, as recently as 2016 the general consensus was "it's too expensive, it won't work, none will but this service, it won't catch on"

It's like trying to convince your grand parents to use email and take an Uber to their doctors appointment.
Any excuse in the world, including voodoo why it won't work and the world will end if they try.

Salt here is basically witchcraft
No question salt will cause damage in time. Not heaving or any settling issues. Okay so with no salt how are they going to make the parking lot safe? Price will go away up any other way. I have some idea they have other methods in Alaska, but will involve a sweeper in the spring.
 

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Discussion Starter · #18 ·
No question salt will cause damage in time. Not heaving or any settling issues. Okay so with no salt how are they going to make the parking lot safe? Price will go away up any other way. I have some idea they have other methods in Alaska, but will involve a sweeper in the spring.
It's always been gravel spreading and sweepers

It's still how the vast majority of its done here
However all the major roads (state) are down to pavement now a days.

Until say 8 or 10 years ago boot spikes were still everyday wear in the winter here
The floors in the supermarkets looked like bears had broken in and scratched them all up
Every year

As late as the 90s roads weren't really maintained and especially the parking lots weren't dealt with
People just drove over it and dealt with it

The post office still has a standing order that all employees wear boot spikes
We have about half the post offices in anchorage
Ours are down to pavement
The other company nope!

The postal workers union on our locations had become quite Whiney about ice, they're spoiled now ... I wonder what they're saying about the locations that don't get salt at all?

The contract reads in such a way as you can use gravel or salt
But if you gravel you have to seeep it up at your cost
If you salt, seeeping is paid extra if they request it
 

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It's always been gravel spreading and sweepers

It's still how the vast majority of its done here
However all the major roads (state) are down to pavement now a days.

Until say 8 or 10 years ago boot spikes were still everyday wear in the winter here
The floors in the supermarkets looked like bears had broken in and scratched them all up
Every year

As late as the 90s roads weren't really maintained and especially the parking lots weren't dealt with
People just drove over it and dealt with it

The post office still has a standing order that all employees wear boot spikes
We have about half the post offices in anchorage
Ours are down to pavement
The other company nope!

The postal workers union on our locations had become quite Whiney about ice, they're spoiled now ... I wonder what they're saying about the locations that don't get salt at all?

The contract reads in such a way as you can use gravel or salt
But if you gravel you have to seeep it up at your cost
If you salt, seeeping is paid extra if they request it
No ambulance chaser commercials in Alaska. :laugh: :laugh: :laugh:
 

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NYC manhole covers flying in air after salt water creates an electrical explosion

Worst I personally saw was years of over salting parking lot the concrete light pole finally gave way and timber
Years ago they use to throw a match in the Sanitary man holes to make sure there was no gasses down there before they entered. Sometime it would move the manhole covers. I dam near died laughing the one time I seen that nut do that.

You certainly don't want to try that now. You got to have two guys on top to pull you out and a gas meter down there. Don't go by those rules today this would be a bad situation with OSHA on site.
 
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