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So if GM declares bankruptcy

Discussion in 'Chevy Trucks' started by rawfish, Nov 21, 2005.

  1. rawfish

    rawfish Member
    Messages: 59

    It will be bigger than every other corporate bankruptcy ever filed in this country put together. Pleasant thought for the night about a company with debt obligations of $300 billion and only $20 billion in cash.

    GM has so many resorces, and could put out great products but they need to cut pontiac, buick etc.....while toyota is putting 27 mil in R&D GM is only at 7 mil due to all of the worthless modles based on the same car ie pontiac GMAC. NOt only that the UAW has helped in the down fall of GM as well. GM was dumb to sign on and agree with contracts but the UAW pushed a bit too far and shot themselfs in the foot. Its very sad that there are workers going in at 8am and playing cards games all day and getting paid 13-19hr cause they are UAW but there are no jobs for them.

    Your thoughts?
  2. Yaz

    Yaz PlowSite.com Addict
    from NH
    Messages: 1,061

    All I know is they better make it or I'll be walking in 30+ years when mine wears out.
  3. PremierLand

    PremierLand PlowSite.com Addict
    from detroit
    Messages: 1,572

    That'd suck if they do, so many people are losing jobs, Delphi is down also, which is like a branch of GM, tons of people in the local area here work for the big three, or a parts supplier for the big three like delphi, vieston, etc.

    There are also some guys on here who work at some of the plants.

    Atleast 3 plants are getting shut down, I think? Lets hope thats it.
  4. JElmWin

    JElmWin Senior Member
    Messages: 232

    Nope, not it. http://quote.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=10000006&sid=aTmZMKNq0G5M&refer=home
    Gm continues to put all thier eggs in the wrong basket. Duplication, Stubborness, Out-Dated concepts all the hallmarks of a fat a failing corporation. Think Chrysler before Iaccoca. GM sits on their fat butts while Eastern Asia continues to give Americans what they've been begging for.
    Gm needs to close everything but Chevy. Even the Corvette hasn't turned a profit in years. It's a fool who can't read the writing on the wall.
    All the talk about Chapter 11 is GM's way of looking for a government handout.:nono: I feel for the workers but this is the same bunch whom were complaining about mandatory overtime and $250K annual wages during the height of the SUV craze.
    Last edited: Nov 21, 2005
  5. Bad Luck

    Bad Luck Senior Member
    Messages: 741

    I think Flykelly can attest to this but I believe that the UAW suggested that the company not invest in Hyndai, Daewoo, Saab, and others. My old man now has to worry about his retirement benefits and pension because the company can't afford the rising cost of health care for employees?

    It'll be a sad day if GM files.
  6. sixspeed

    sixspeed Senior Member
    Messages: 306

    it CAN happen

    I watched it happen to Bethlehem Steel...
    Sadly there is some truth in all that is said.
    It is hard to objectively look at what has happened to Amercan industry and not say something that will offend someone. So I won't.
  7. flykelley

    flykelley 2000 Club Member
    Messages: 2,127

    My thoughts are if you don't know what the he!! you are talking about you need to keep your mouth shut. I am so darn tired of people who don't work at GM tell me that all Uaw autoworkers are lazy. Its also quite funny if we played cards for 16 hours, that trucks get built at all. Come live one day in the footsteps of a UAW autoworker and you will see life quite different than you are talking about.
    How is this for a days work, 60 trucks per hour and that lines doesn't stop. Two paid breaks over 8 hours, one is 28 mins the other is 23 mins. You miss a part you will get displined, you miss a day or are late you will get displined. Your hand hurts becuase of your job, you get to go to medicial and after they ice it down, its back to work. The next morning you can't hardly move your hand.
    Oh well back to that line we have trucks to build. Summer time it gets well over 100 degrees in the paint dept and Body shop, no shorts the rule here so you sweat all day building 60 trucks per hour. How do I know all this, its becuase I live it everyday for the last 28 years. So don't sit here and tell me shoprats are work 13-19 hrs a day and don't do crap but play cards. THAT IS A LINE OF B.S. If you want to place some of the blame for the downfall of GM at the hands of the UAW fine, I can live with that, but most of it lays with GM.:yow!:

    Regards Mike
    Last edited: Nov 22, 2005
  8. BowTieDmax

    BowTieDmax Senior Member
    Messages: 152

    Easy there Flykelley,

    You have to give some of us the benefit of the dought that we do know what we are talking about. I come from a whole family of GM retirees and current employees. And I am sorry, but I hear more stories or the card playing, sleeping and working 14-16 hr days for only 2 worth of work!! So yes I am sure there are plants and areas that work, hard but there is a huge amount of money that could be saved by better work ethics. And like allot of the big steel plants (LTV) in my area, the union just put the pay and benefits so high that the company just couldn’t afford it.
  9. Bad Luck

    Bad Luck Senior Member
    Messages: 741

    What you hear is true. But it is not the Unions fault, nor is it the workers. Do these family members tell you the whole story? Or just the one that gets the attention? These things take place at plants that still have contracts out with the union but GM cannot live up to it promise. The plants where they are completely shut down and have no where for the workers to go. GM must live up to the union contract so it has these guys come in to the plant and corals them like animals in cages for 9 hours a day and tells them that they don't care what they do, as long as they are at the plant and not out doing something else. These guys have few options in order to continue getting paid from GM, go to the plant and hang out, perform community service for 40 hours a week, or go back to school. If you are priveledged enough to get asked to transer to another plant, you get to move thousands of miles away from everything that you know only to lose seniority and take jobs away from another locals Union. Yeah, nice way to end your career. Most of these guys are in their late 40's and 50's, long time employees that only have a few years left until retirement and know nothing else. WHAT WOULD YOU DO?

    Do you ingoramusus really think that these guys want to go and sit on their asses? These aren't today's batch of young lazy asses. These hardend Union Auto Workers with real work ethics and mindsets.

    GM was pushed by the Union to sign the contracts? Do you know what GM was proposing? What do you do for a living? Does your company try to screw you every few years out of your pension and health benefits that you worked your ass off for 30 years for? All these guys are looking for is compensation for lining the pockets of corporate and government big wigs for decades. I'm sure Rick Wagoner and the rest fo the board make a VERY nice salary for driving the company into the ground. Probably makes a nice living sitting in the temp controlled office building on his ass while the guys on the line die from stomach cancer from ingesting microscopic paint particles for so long, tear rotator cuffs by working above their heads all day, get carpeltunnel so bad they have no feeling at all in their hands, tear miniscus in their knees from standing for 30 years, and pass out from heat exhuastion in the middle of summer with no AC or fans and the heat of the welders. All that and then they try to take away the very things that these guys will most definitely need?

    The bottom line is that the UAW does not design, market or set profit margins for the product. They just show up an assemble it. I'm sure the workers at Nissan Indy plant are making the same wages if not more for the same work. The Japs just make better business decisions and have less personal interest in anything else besides making the company a well oiled machine. If the employee has no work, it's GM's responsibility to find the work for these guys. Don't get it twisted, I'm sure most of them would be happy going to work doing other things instead of taking an almost 30% cut in pay to sit and hangout and do nothing because these guys are not taking home their full pay. GM didn't have to sign the new contract, as a matter of fact, they can still back out of it, and they have already "re-negotiated" the terms of the contract. Basically the Union can do whatever it wants but GM is making the health benefit changes it wants to make.

    Son of a 27 year UAW - currently getting BF'ed by GM.
    Last edited: Nov 22, 2005
  10. flykelley

    flykelley 2000 Club Member
    Messages: 2,127

    Well Said Bad Luck.
    Thank You my brother, I have seen the hardship this great machine called GM puts on some of there workers. I will tell you guys this 30 years on the line at a GM truck plant is like 30 years of hard labor. I'm not talking about a parts plants, I have never worked in anything but assy plants and its damn hard work.
    Yes I'm thankfull that I work at GM, I have made a very good living in my 28 years here. I just get made as he!! when someone beats the he!! out of the autoworker for mismanagment by GM. As in a earlier post that stated we make $250.000 well guys do the math, $26.00 a hour x 40 hours a week is not even close. Heck double that and you still are not in the ballpark. As for the stroies about sleeping and playing cards all day are just that, most of the time stories and that all.

    Regards Mike
    Proud to be a member of UAW Local 594
    Builder of World Class Full Size Pickups
  11. Frozen001

    Frozen001 Senior Member
    from Rome NY
    Messages: 908

    Lets Face it guys... the government will bail out GM since if it were to to fold think how many people would be out of work... The politicians cannot afford to let GM fold.

    I respect all you auto workers out there at the mercy of the poor management of GM. They need to clean house get some people at the top who really care about the fate of the company...
  12. ratlover

    ratlover PlowSite.com Addict
    from IL
    Messages: 1,325

    I thought the guys working for yota and hyandia or how ever the F you spell it makes quite a bit less than the guys working for ford and GM?

    Not really the unions falt(I'm sure there is a bit of the blame) but when the american auto co's market share was huge they were able to pay good $$$ and good benifits for thier workers.....then market share shrinks and you have obligations for guys that are getting old and costing more $$$(no offense, old guys cost more $$$ loaded than a young guy, rhgt wrong or indifferent) and you looking at being screwed. It would be nice if the big wigs would take thier big dollar sallaries, and other forms of compensation and cut them back.

    Alot has to do with the american public though. They want thier inexpensive products and ***** when all thats left in this country is jobs ad mcdonalds and wal mart:rolleyes: All the wile buying cheaper products that are forign and have better quality:rolleyes: The thing I find realy funny is that the forign stuff gets rated higher than the american......but if you look at the number of times the forign stuff is in the shop:rolleyes: Somehoe if a Chevy is in the shop twice it gets a 4 on reliability, a toyota goes into the shop twice(or 4 times for its "scheduled matinence":rolleyes: ) and it gets an 8.

    The uninformed leming public is the big reason. And the US govt and all the manufacturers should be educating the darn population. Ford and Chevy aught to run a campaign together. Just show the stats on what happens to your dollar when you buy american. And what happens to your dollar even when you buy a forign car built in america. Show how the jappanees come in here and get free land and big tax breaks, pay workers less, use jap co.s and stee to build the plants........the whole f-ing thing makes me sick......
  13. rawfish

    rawfish Member
    Messages: 59

    Well if american companies would build a quality product there wouldn't be the problem of americans not buying american cars. Look at GM, what car do they put out besides the corvette that isn't a cheap under powered, tonka toy interior, with a design thats 10 years too late?? You have buick and pontiac that, all of there damn cars are boring as hell and yet there is still $$ put into a dieing product. A fine example if the RWD platform that GM was going to start building, well someone decided that hey lets build more trucks and keep on building trucks since they are selling so well and we are making so much money on them!???? Stupid!!! Look at DC there RWD platforms are taking off very well and selling very good compared to any chevy or ford. The new pontiac solstice its 10 years too late!!!!!!!!!!!!! sorry but it can not compare to the miata and S200.

    And for the unions, its not the 70's anymore, i'm not saying everyone is a lazy union worker but there is alot that hide behind the union comfort. And yes its part GM's fault as well as its part unions fault for pushing for so much out of a company that will crash due to the $$ thats coming in and $$ thats going out, sits simple economics and business forcasting that is obvioulsy lacking in US companies.
  14. PremierLand

    PremierLand PlowSite.com Addict
    from detroit
    Messages: 1,572

    Is your plant getting shut down too?

    Anyway Mike, I cant imagine what you have to be going through, I wish the best of luck to ya.
  15. Bad Luck

    Bad Luck Senior Member
    Messages: 741

    All good points. :nod:

    But I do differ your opinion on quality of American to Japanese Autos. To date there is still not an HD Jap pickup that can perfrom the work any one of the big three can do. There is still not a Jap light duty that has the reliability and staying power as the C/K1500, Silverado, & F-150. They appeal to differnt markets. Drive a base level Camry or Accord then drive a base level Impala or Taurus and tell me which is better. There is still this old time stigma of American cars being of poor quality and workmanship and too expensive. Probably true for a better part of the 80's and early 90's but things have turned around a lot since then.

    As for them not having quality, powerful products other than the Vette, how about the whole GMT-800 platform? The Regal with the bullet proof 3.8l? Driven an 06 Impala with DOD lately? What about the CTS, the first American sedan to compete with the 3-Series? Ever drop the pedal on a GTO or a Supercharger Grand Prix?

    And for evey Accord, Camry, or Pathfinder that someone says is still running great after 100k, I'll show them a Grand prix, Regal, or Blazer that's turned twice with no issues.

    Some good info on Union made vehicles in the US.
  16. scottL

    scottL PlowSite.com Addict
    Messages: 1,613


    I've read about posts in this thread of UAW workers slaving in bad conditions, no horrific conditions - year after year, generation after generation. Yet, they choose not to get a better job and still have time to work a plow truck. Amazing.

    There was a great article in the Wall Street Journal today really laying out the land. It covered how management at GM is mis-focused, how the workers are with issues and how the supposed forgien auto companies which build 80% of their cars here are making profit and paying their employees very well with out unions. ( And it's not that they build a better car either ).

    I like the quote about workers being in their 40' or 50's and nearing retirement .... Uhhh, in the USA retirement is aorund 65 or 72 depending upon your birth year. That give you plenty of time to re-train and move to where the jobs are.

    Make your own conclusion but, things change. Competition drives this change and you can not live in a box while living in a country that promotes internationalization. So, what do you do when someone wins your plowing contract??? How do you sell yourself to your clients the next time???? It's about being better, faster, smarter and ever improving!
  17. ratlover

    ratlover PlowSite.com Addict
    from IL
    Messages: 1,325

    Lets take a few stabs at a few cars and consider it the whole. Lets try it with some imports though. My bud has a hyundia and boy is it a power house, every time you close the doors it just feels like a quality well built car:rolleyes: My mother worked at a mitsu dealer. It amazed me how people believed thier cars were better quality. Yup, I have 80k on my car with 0 problems.....um.....whats it in for.....oh....well its time for its scheduled matinence for the timing belt to get replaced. I've herd her say.....got do x matincence at x miles for you to keep your wanrantee. American car you run till it breaks....you dont replace 1/2 the parts before they break for grins. Forign car co's have people snowed on the quality and reliablity issue and you are part of the ignorant masses. When I say ignorant I mean by the strict dictionary definition, not saying your stupid just uninformed.

    Dont just look at the $$$ the worker right now makes and compare it to the other worker. Look at the total loaded figure1 and 2 look at were all the other dollars go. From who builds the plant to who gets the $$$, to were are the parts actually made?
  18. sixspeed

    sixspeed Senior Member
    Messages: 306

    Please let's keep it nice though!

    Since we are all professionals and friends, let's keep this nice and try to be objective.

    I cannot speak for GM but I can speak for Bethlehem Steel. President Nixon once said "Bethlehem, what a golf course" when describing Bethlehem Steel's Weyhill golf course. One of the 3 private Steel-owned courses that the company provided for their chosen few. Along with paid mansions, security and groundskeeping and a skscraper office building with a floor layout in the form of a cross to afford more offices a corner window view.

    And then there was my neighbor, like many who worked at "the steel" who used to boast how he could buy the neighborhood out with his salary. He never failed to mention his "14 week vacations", one of the perks that 20 or 25 year USWA Beth employees got.

    All of this is well documented in a local Pulitzer prize winning newspaperman's book "Crisis in Bethlehem".

    The steel is now going to be a casino playground for the wealthy and mostly minimum wage jobs for the mostly Latino poor South Bethlehem community.

    The article that was alluded to in rawfish's article was a Detroit News article dated 10/17/05 "Job banks program - 12,000 paid not to work" which describes laid off auto workers in Michigan collecting $30+/hr salaries while doing no work for their employer. Here is the link address:


    I can speak for a personal situation: This coming July, the National Model Railroad Assoociation will have it's annual convention at the Pennsylvania Convention Center in Philadelphia. As part of this, a local trolley (streetcar) historical organization was invited to display it's modular toy trolley layout. They were informed that "due to union rules, no power tools could be used by exhibitors in the hall" They inquired as to whether they would be able to use a soldering iron to re-attach broken toy trolley (12 volt!) overhead wire on their model trolley layout.
    The convention center (in the former Reading Termimal) continues to struggle with a lack of exhibitors and little repeat business.

    Everyone deserves a fair wage, and GM's problems are much more complicated than profits, labor costs, and health care costs. In the end it is America, and the American consumer, who will be the ultimate loser.
    Last edited: Nov 22, 2005
  19. rawfish

    rawfish Member
    Messages: 59

    of course the korean cars are junk but they too will surpass the americans in a few years. Mitsu is just junk and even the import fans know that mistu can't build a good car except for the evo. But take a close look at honda and toyota. I have a 04 acura TL, what american car can I buy that will surpass the quality and performance for the same price, a bonniville??:p

    As far as maintence all cars have schedlued maintence and some more than others, but thats just what the companies recomend to make more $$. I used to be be in the automotive business and I have owned and worked on all cars of the world and I would say that honda and toyota are two of the best made, even if you just put gas in them and drive them without any maintence.

    If its so bad why is it that if you go to a parts store they don't carry alot of the parts on hand?? yet they have tons and tons of ignition modules, struts, dog bones etc for domestics? hummm..........
    Another good fact that GM is were they are now with there products is that its the biggest company in the world, comming from the contry where the best should come out of but they choose to continue making ****** old cars because some "patriotic" bastards kept on buying them.

    Where would GM be if people purchased cars solely on quality and not patriotism. Not just individual users... think of all the fleet accounts that would be lost like police, government, and large companies that need a fleet of cars or trucks, just because "The Toyota is likely to need fewer repairs over the course of its life."

    I'm starting to see this happening already, actually. Taxis which used to be Chevy Carpices are now Honda Odysseys. Theres a taxi company in central PA whose entire fleet is made up of civic sedans.
  20. rawfish

    rawfish Member
    Messages: 59

    Oh yes not ripping on anyone here, but i'm just pissed that GM will fail and in turn it will hurt the US ecomomy as a whole. So please don't take offence to what I say i'm just venting, lets just all wish for snow:D