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SIMA Member does not pay sub

Discussion in 'Snow & Ice Management Association - SIMA' started by sameakman, Oct 28, 2008.

  1. sameakman

    sameakman Junior Member
    Messages: 18

    If a SIMA member does not pay a sub for work completed as stated in contract is there any recourse through SIMA against this member?

    Thank you for your input.
  2. bribrius

    bribrius PlowSite.com Addict
    Messages: 1,609

    they should kick him out.
    no morals
    failure to run a business
    hang him from a tree branch.

    get out the torch we are lighting a witch burning fire.
    sharpen the guillotine and get the pail

    picket sign painting on tuesday.:D
  3. SnoFarmer

    SnoFarmer PlowSite Fanatic
    from N,E. MN
    Messages: 9,883

    It's time for him to turn in his secret decoder ring.

    To bad you got stiffed any details?
  4. JD Dave

    JD Dave PlowSite Fanatic
    Messages: 11,194

    Hmm I wonder if he was a CSP. LOL
  5. 122fox

    122fox Member
    Messages: 41

    I know theres more than one sima member who dosent pay there subs!!!!!!!
  6. Mark Oomkes

    Mark Oomkes PlowSite Fanatic
    Messages: 13,257

    Gotta admit, this is one of my biggest issues with SIMA.

    This has happened before and that 'member' still has his CSP designation. Should've been banned from SIMA for life IMO.
  7. JD Dave

    JD Dave PlowSite Fanatic
    Messages: 11,194

    Sima should really look into these issues and take action if proven.
  8. Mark Oomkes

    Mark Oomkes PlowSite Fanatic
    Messages: 13,257

    Do a search for SMG or John Allin or PM plowed aka John Banks. Or any of the other hundreds of contractors.
  9. KGRlandscapeing

    KGRlandscapeing 2000 Club Member
    Messages: 2,660

    ya theres more then one
  10. JD Dave

    JD Dave PlowSite Fanatic
    Messages: 11,194

    hmmm, the plot thickens. I wonder how long this thread will stay?
  11. customers_snow

    customers_snow Member
    from 48843
    Messages: 38

    Perhaps I should let the SIMA staff answer this but I will give a brief answer. The Board of Directors and the SIMA staff have voiced concerns over ethics, etc. We have discussed the idea of an ethics panel to investigate complaints. We will continue to dicuss it further. However, there are some legal issues that would have to be worked out in order to "kick" someone out of the association.

    I expect Martin to have a better answer for you when this post is brought to his attention.
  12. sameakman

    sameakman Junior Member
    Messages: 18

    Thanks for all the input.

    Found out today through a common associate that THIS SIMA MEMBER felt we plowed the lot too quickly and that the amount he owes me is about the amount he lost in possible income compared to previous years.

    I sent my letter of demand for payment and at the end of 10 days will file with local magistrate. Looking forward to hearing him tell this magistrate the reason for not paying.
  13. TCLA

    TCLA 2000 Club Member
    Messages: 2,707

    Yea, something doesn't sound right there. But remember, there are always two sides to every story or conflict.

    I agree SIMA should be able to take some responsibility and deal with a member if unethical business practices or actions are proven to be fact. I also believe there in lyes the huge burden for SIMA. They are not a court of law.....what methods can they employ for thorough and proper due diligence? Will they pursue accusations by members only, or just anyone? False accusations will be their liability.

    We all would agree there should be ramifications for those who stiff their subs, vendors, etc. but what should they be?? I think they would be exposed to slander if they came to a hasty or wrong decision.

    This will be a slippery slope for SIMA to navigate. Might be that it is not feasible or advisable for them to govern in such a way.
  14. iceyman

    iceyman 2000 Club Member
    Messages: 2,926

    the more companies that say they are SIMA members and end up screwing there subs and such is just going to make the title "SIMA member" worthless.....it could end up hurting their reputation in the end,,,,
  15. TCLA

    TCLA 2000 Club Member
    Messages: 2,707

    I think we (the SIMA members) treat membership more valuable than our customers. Some could give a rats ass what national organizations you affiliate yourself with, or how many certifications you or your company hold. The economy is poor.....especially in Michigan. If you're not low, or willing to do things for less $$, you won't get the work. It's a valuable tool for marketing and sales, but not necessarily the determining factor in wining the work.

    Setting higher standards for yourself is always good, but the customer decides things from their perspective.

    Messages: 79

    show me the money

    heres my 2 cents

    listen, there are courts in every town. if you sign a contract and there are issues. go to court and do what you have to do ANYWAY.....

    I do not see how SIMA can improve itself and be worth more by investigating complaints about money owed to "subs" members or non members.

    SIMA is an association, I don't think the dues sent in covers investigations or that other members would want to see SIMA tied up in contract litigation over a sub owed money

    HOW EVER SIMA asking a member to share a case after its been determined/closed/dismissed would be very educational to members. of course if everyone in the party agrees to that for educational purposes.

    and the mention of the names above, there old company owes thousands to subs. and nothing will happen unless someone xxxxx xxxxxx xxxxxxxx there sitting at a table next to them, but lord that is a totally different story for another court room.

    and last but not least one going around telling members of an association that a member in good standing is not paying a sub ( or saying anything else harmful or slanderous) can be an issue itself. especially if that complainer looses in court and is found to be at fault. that person could get in a little heat.....

    WoW did I have to edit this post !!!

    Good Night !

    ps, below is the last person who didnt pay me !!! just kidding...I actually saved this dude, he was homeless and drunk and got him to the shelter....see were nice people!
    Last edited: Nov 8, 2008
  17. Camden

    Camden PlowSite Fanatic
    Messages: 6,604

    Yeah, so nice in fact that you snapped his pic before you helped him :rolleyes: It's cool you helped him and all but why are you taking his picture???

    Messages: 79

    of course I took the pic after calling 911 from the cell. it was a property adjacent to ours and I guess the guy was seen on several lots. I just thought getting a pic would be a smart idea at the time in case something came of it.
  19. Scenic Lawnscape

    Scenic Lawnscape Senior Member
    Messages: 481

    Very Wise Idea. This day and age everyone and anyone will try to sue you for something if you dont cover your a**
  20. RLM

    RLM PlowSite.com Addict
    Messages: 1,270

    This topic is not only a SIMA issue but an industry issue, & I feel as Mark does. There is an code of ethics I believe I signed. If its not unethical to not pay for services rendered I don't know what is. Should SIMA police its members yes, how I don't know. When I was in the study secession for my CSP, there was a discussion about salting & billing per ton. The quote from the existing CSP was somthing to the effect of "If we could get away with putting down 200lbs & billing for a ton we would, we have to put down 700-900lbs". This is an idustry standard from what I have seen as an attitude, is it ethical......hell no. BTW all my salting is either inclusive or per visit . I personally believe in the law of averages, some apps will require more product, others not as much in the end I can sleep at night (or when I'm not working at least). Personally I think the weights & measure people AG's would need to be involved. These type of attitudes, whether not paying bills, over charging, contractors that take the little old lady's residential contract $ & don't show, it kills us as an industry. How you fix it I don't know.