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Salt vs Concrete --- Studies??

Discussion in 'Ice Management' started by IMAGE, Apr 28, 2009.

  1. IMAGE

    IMAGE Sponsor
    Messages: 1,747

    Does anyone have some good links to show that salt is not the reason concrete pops, but that it is actually the water freeze cycles?

    I need some good links to some studies.

  2. Mick

    Mick PlowSite.com Veteran
    from Maine
    Messages: 5,546

  3. IMAGE

    IMAGE Sponsor
    Messages: 1,747

    Thanks Mick!
  4. BigLou80

    BigLou80 Senior Member
    Messages: 558

    actually salt disovles in water and gets to the rebar, where it causes corrosion, when steel rusts it expands causing the conctrete to pop, freeze thaw cycles don't help.

    Why do you need this information ?
  5. cretebaby

    cretebaby PlowSite Veteran
    Messages: 4,162

    How often have you seen that?
  6. BigLou80

    BigLou80 Senior Member
    Messages: 558

    all the time, every bridge around
  7. TurfKing360

    TurfKing360 Member
    Messages: 67

    not just tha but if the concete is not air intrained meaning proper addatives mixing in to for little air bubbles to help with expansion and contraction when salt is added and changes the surface temp the stress builds and causes cracks. Also if the concrete has not had the proper time to cure and has not been sealed correctly the salt water will soak into the concrete refreeze and pop it of surface spall it or soak into the rebar and create a chemical reaction that pops it. My suggestion as a concrete contractor and aSnow and ice management pro, do your home work. when going out to estimate the property in the late summer early fall take a bottle of water pour alittle on the lot if it beads up first the starts to soak in you should be fine if it just soaks right in your screwed.
  8. T-MAN

    T-MAN PlowSite.com Addict
    Messages: 1,363

    Thats an interesting perspective. What causes a basement floor to crack ? Spalling occurs without de-icers too, why ?
    How do the highway departments seal the concrete road ways ?
  9. TurfKing360

    TurfKing360 Member
    Messages: 67

    Ok first a concrete can fail in many ways and for many reasons. Exterior slab fail is sped up with the use of deicers. Basement floors can fail for many reasons, first if the slab isn't properly jointed meaning relief cuts put in the aid in expansion and contraction, If the surface was overworked or to much water was added to the mix or they left the air-entraining addmix out, or if they failed to install expansion joints around the perimeter between the slab and the foundaton walls, it could also be an uncompacted base that is collapsing beneath the concrete slab. Spalling is simply the moisture within the concrete expanding and contracting. You may not be aware but concrete cures by a chemical reaction between the water and the cement within the mix not by the water evaporating out. So even in a basement their is enough temp dif changes to allow spalling to occur. Highway contractors seal the concrete right after it is finished with a sprayed app of a cure and seal product that helps it cure properly and to seal it. if you watch a new concrete roadway put in watch them as they or a machine finished the surface and you will see someone follow it spraying a white liquid over the fresh concrete that is the cure and seal.
  10. Bossman 92

    Bossman 92 PlowSite.com Addict
    Messages: 1,771

    Let me ask you this. I would like to concrete the floor of my salt bin this summer, what do i need to do to ensure I have minimal damage to the floor from the salt?

  11. cretebaby

    cretebaby PlowSite Veteran
    Messages: 4,162

    Pour it now with a quality mix and use a good sealer, not just cure and seal.

    If it is just a salt bin does it matter?
  12. TurfKing360

    TurfKing360 Member
    Messages: 67

    Yeah pour now use a quality cure and seal and give it as long as possible without any use or weight sitting on it and then just before you start to fill it apply another good coating of a high grade sealer to it. Believe me it does matter not doing it properly can take time and money from you in the future. Te surface spalls and your loader scoops up some salt and chunks of concrete and concrete chunks and salt spreaders don't like each other to much. Where in NE Ohio are you Bossman. If your not to far I possibly coudle help you out on a weekend or at least point you in the right dirrection.
  13. cretebaby

    cretebaby PlowSite Veteran
    Messages: 4,162

    That would have to be some pretty nasty spalling to get a chunk of concrete big enough to be problem in a salt spreader.
  14. SnowMatt13

    SnowMatt13 PlowSite.com Addict
    Messages: 1,559

    We put 3" of asphalt in our salt bin on top of the concrete.
  15. Wayne Volz

    Wayne Volz Senior Member
    Messages: 694

    You guys are too funny sometimes.

    Check Peterschemical.com. They have some interesting information available. may not be what you are looking for, but they have a lot of information.

    Okay, this is a bit off the top, but maybe use mag. or cal. or other similar product to help reduce the freeze thaw cycles.