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Reasons for applying salt after every push.

Discussion in 'Ice Management' started by Snowball, Oct 9, 2007.

  1. Snowball

    Snowball Junior Member
    Messages: 11

    I plow several small commercial lots and I salt after every pass. I have never been questioned but I asked myself why this was needed and I was surprised at the lack of an intelligent answer. I began to think what if a client were to ask me this. I would just babble some garbage about the snow bonding with the pavement. I was just hoping someone can point out the obvious benefits of salting after each push or am I just wasting salt. Any help would be greatly appreciated.
  2. T-MAN

    T-MAN PlowSite.com Addict
    Messages: 1,363

    Are you selling plowing/salting or Snow and Ice Management ? We prefer to sell Snow and Ice Management which really boils down to Risk management. The average Slip and Fall costs a client 10K just to defend themselves. That would be a case that makes it too court and is dismissed. If there is a settlement the client will probally pay alot more, at the least there insurance will go up.

    As far as salt after plowing, plowing often does not scrape clean to bare pavement. When this re-freezes it can become like black Ice. Not a good situation, for the client, there employee's, the contractor (that is YOU!) or the public.
    The residual from a salting will often help with bonding as well. Heavy daytime storms we try to pre-treat before as well. Hardpack is a bite, remember last Dec 1st ?
  3. Vaughn Schultz

    Vaughn Schultz PlowSite.com Addict
    Messages: 1,565

    That was a highly intelligent answer :salute: .
  4. cjasonbr

    cjasonbr Senior Member
    from Mass
    Messages: 635

    The average person pays NOTHING upfront because the average business owner has liability insurance. Obviously they may get surcharged after the fact though.

    Strangely enough the hypothetical person in your example apparently has the appropriate insurance. :confused:

    Where does this figure of 10k come from by the way? Sounded good at the time?
  5. cjasonbr

    cjasonbr Senior Member
    from Mass
    Messages: 635

    In some situations it may be necessary to salt after every pass to ensure safety, etc.

    If a storm is at night and your lots aren't occupied during the event. Then it seems that it would be more efficient to just salt at the end. If you have a problem with ice adhering or whatever then just use more salt at the end.

    If you saved all the salt that you currently lay down during a 3 or 4 push storm until the end, and laid down 3x or 4x the material, it would absolutely incinerate any ice patches. It would also probably look like a huge waste of salt, which using 3-4x the salt is.

    As it is most of the salt you use end up in the banks with all the snow. Obviously this isn't efficient, buts sometimes necessary to ensure safety.

    That's how i do it anyways.
  6. Jay brown

    Jay brown PlowSite.com Addict
    Messages: 1,783

    i agree with all the answers however if your pushing around the dawn hours of the day and the sun will be out it will melt all that stuck snow real quick and it might be a waste of chemicals.
  7. JD Dave

    JD Dave PlowSite Fanatic
    Messages: 11,194

    It might be a waste of chemicals. If I'm in doubt I put the salt down. I like having salt residue left over for the next storm.
  8. T-MAN

    T-MAN PlowSite.com Addict
    Messages: 1,363

    I did not mention UP FRONT COST, I stated the average slip and fall costs a business owner 10k. That number came from SIMA research.
    Salting after plowing, or salting unplowable accumulation in a timely maner proves DUE DILIGENCE. Most slip and fall cases are based on NEGLIGENCE, from the property owner and contractor. If you have records that show DUE DILIGENCE you wont make it to court.

    Any other questions ?
  9. cjasonbr

    cjasonbr Senior Member
    from Mass
    Messages: 635

    Dude - even if you're found negligent the insurance company pays it. You pay NOTHING!!

    I'm not sure how to make it much clearer. By "upfront" i meant not including surcharges - which i thought i said.

    What exactly does your "SIMA research" tell you liability insurance does? :rolleyes:

    EDIT: Perhaps the "SIMA research" you are referring to was talking about the uninsured business owner? That would make more sense.
    Last edited: Oct 10, 2007
  10. cjasonbr

    cjasonbr Senior Member
    from Mass
    Messages: 635

    Actually the contractor doesn't have to prove "DUE DILIGENCE" because it's not the contractors property. It's the property owners responsibility to make his property safe for whatever he has going on there. As a contractor we are simply an agent working for the property owner, whose only obligation is to meet the terms of the contract.

    Thanks for the lesson though xysport
  11. basher

    basher PlowSite Fanatic
    from 19707
    Messages: 8,993

    Light salting after every plowing will keep the snow and ice from locking up to the pavement, and if well documented could help get you dismissed from the suit before it reaches trial phase.

    It is the property owners responsibility to provide a safe, and harmless environment if they "invite" the public on to their property. Their liability is diluted somewhat by hiring you "the professional," you on the other hand can not hide behind "in service of the master" statues because your an independent contractor hired for your knowledge and expertise.

    If they're going to sue, everybody's in the shark tank. you'll have to go though the legal steps to get dismissed. You'll still end up in depositions, have to fill out endless interrogatories, and buy lots of shark food (pay lawyers.) Salting after every plowing won't stop this, he!! using and flame thrower to melt and a shop vac to sop the water up won't stop it. Your insurance will pay the legal bills but no one will reimburse you for your time.

    But we're hi-jacking this thread.
  12. T-MAN

    T-MAN PlowSite.com Addict
    Messages: 1,363

    Dude- No it does not cover "the un-insured". 10K would be your retainer for an attorney if you had no insurance. As Basher mentioned, time is money. What would it cost you (as a business owner) if you missed 10 days of work because you were getting sued ? Insurance is not a security blanket that shrouds you from all expenses, liabilities. How much is your deductable ? You will pay that even if you dont go to court.

    Basher mentioned In a slip and fall you as a contractor will be named and sued no matter what , who do you think an employee will sue when they fall in the lot ? If you are hired for salting services or plowing you are taking on liability period.
    Last edited: Oct 10, 2007
  13. basher

    basher PlowSite Fanatic
    from 19707
    Messages: 8,993

    You can take the red letters out, in todays world if you are hired as anything other then an W-2 employee, you take on liability. Even then you might named in the suit. I always wear a single breasted, dark blue pin stripe, 42 regular, makes you look respectable.:rolleyes:
    Last edited: Oct 10, 2007
  14. ptllandscapeIL

    ptllandscapeIL Senior Member
    Messages: 495

    TMAN is right sell snow and ice control,Last dec 1st storm was nasty and wet i went throguh about 10 pallets of salt that storm,I do some mcdonalds and if they dotn want salt i wont sign the contract,not worth the risk
  15. cjasonbr

    cjasonbr Senior Member
    from Mass
    Messages: 635

    The only reason a lawsuit usually mentions both the property owner and the contractor is because the person suing has no way of knowing the contents of the contract between the contractor and property owner.

    They simply don't know, or care, who is actually liable into the court proceedings start and they delve into the contract. Then they will decide which party, if not both are potentially liable. The other party will be dismissed and the regular type proceedings start.

    What is going to take you 10 days? You may spend 1 day testifying and 1 hr getting your records together. I'd love to hear all the work you think you'd have to do that would take 56 hours though! Are you planning on representing yourself or something?! :jester:

    so what's the deductible on your liability insurance? :jester:

    Basher is right when he says that even if you may not think your liable you can still be sued, and i'll be the first person to agree with that.

    But most of the information in your posts is just wrong. From the looks of it you have no idea what liability insurance is, or what it covers. I'm not trying to bicker with you, just trying to mix the correct information in with the not so correct stuff.

    yea, sorry for hijacking the thread. Hope you found the answer your were looking for.
  16. Mark Oomkes

    Mark Oomkes PlowSite Fanatic
    Messages: 13,236

    Dude, (is this surfsite.com or plowsite?) I salt just to rip my customers off.


    T-Man is correct.
  17. JD Dave

    JD Dave PlowSite Fanatic
    Messages: 11,194

    About time Mark. I was waiting for your view on this. LOL
  18. SnoFarmer

    SnoFarmer PlowSite Fanatic
    from N,E. MN
    Messages: 9,883

    How do you you think you get to the over paid stage.
    This line of thinking goes well with the lazy clause.:nod:

    What does your liability ins cover, their ***.
    It will cost easily 10k ( A number That I pulled out of my ***xysport )
    Having been involve in suits as an Employee.
    How much an hr does a decent lawyer cost?

    Now for the deductible $500 to 1k That will go the first day. Fees, retainer,
    And we haven't even started to take depositions.

    Even if you are innocent it will cost $$ to defend your self.

    And it is sure nice to have (ins) when
    you push a transformer off its pedestal.
    (not on the list of things hit lol)

    But hey! why salt or why we salt?
    I only have 1 account that wants any ice control.

    If you are there when it is snowing servicing your accounts you will not have hard pack.
    Salt to prevent, Ice melt ( Other chlorides ) to melt.

    You are going to laugh and call me names :D
    I never have had anything other than a hand shake agreement.
    All of my customers have been with me for 14yrs now.
    no written contract.
    Don't give anything to the prosecution to use against you and they will use your own contract against you.

    But then again I just a 4 truck operation:waving:

    P.S. JMO
    Last edited by a moderator: Oct 10, 2007
  19. basher

    basher PlowSite Fanatic
    from 19707
    Messages: 8,993

    Ever taken a stroll down this particular path? In the majors not some "Judge Judy" (small claims) court room, it's not the couple hours you suppose. If you don't have insurance 10K is reasonable.
  20. Mark Oomkes

    Mark Oomkes PlowSite Fanatic
    Messages: 13,236

    Just for a good chuckle or substantive info? :D

    Has nothing to do with why I laugh at you and call you names. :drinkup: My largest summer customer and winter customer (2 different ones) I don't have a signed contract with either. The summer customer doesn't even get told what it's going to cost, we just do the work. Winter one gets told, billed and they pay.

    So cjasbonr (whatever) going to argue with basher? He appears to have it pretty well laid out what happens. We'll accept refutation anytime, might not believe it, but we'll at least read it. Unless you graduated 2 years early from law school.