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problem with a sub-

Discussion in 'Commercial Snow Removal' started by sluggermn, Feb 19, 2010.

  1. sluggermn

    sluggermn Member
    Messages: 85

    Hey guys I need some advice on how to deal with this situation.
    I asked a local guy to move some piles for me with his payloader and he told me he would go and move them for me.
    the problem is I think he is over billing by twice the time it should have taken to get the job done, I made him come back a second time because the first time he did not move any thing where I told him to put the snow and I had to call and ***** to get him to do it right.

    first question is
    how do I call him out on the time and over billing me

    second question is
    I don't think I should have pay for the second time out because he did not do it correctly the first time. should I only pay half or ask him to ammend the bill or just take it to court?

  2. Lil STX Ford

    Lil STX Ford Senior Member
    Messages: 176

    Did you show him physically where you wanted it moved to? or just gave an approx idea of location.
  3. buckwheat_la

    buckwheat_la 2000 Club Member
    Messages: 2,254

    so you figure he doubled his time AND he had to come back twice? i wouldn't get into too much of a arguement with the guy, unless you can prove that he lied about the time it took. as far as having to come back, ask yourself if it was a honest mistake/misunderstanding or if he really was just a dumb @ss.
  4. sluggermn

    sluggermn Member
    Messages: 85

    I told him exactly where to put the snow.

    ""so you figure he doubled his time AND he had to come back twice? i wouldn't get into too much of a argument with the guy, unless you can prove that he lied about the time it took. as far as having to come back, ask yourself if it was a honest mistake/misunderstanding or if he really was just a dumb @ss.""

    It was neither buckwheat_la he is trying to take me for a ******* and I am not falling for it.

  5. Mass-hole

    Mass-hole Member
    from Boston
    Messages: 35

    You meet with him and say I think you're over billing me. The reason I think this is because the first time you came out you didn't move the piles as I instructed you. Therefore, I don't think I should pay you for your time on that trip. He will say:
    1. yes I know, I already adjusted the bill for that
    2. you didn't instruct me where you wanted the piles moved to
    3. tough, pay me for both trips.

    Regardless of the outcome, I would expect either you'll never call him again for double billing you, or he'll never work for you because you didn't pay his bill.
  6. Brant'sLawnCare

    Brant'sLawnCare PlowSite.com Addict
    Messages: 1,756

    How much is the bill? Because that can be a fairly expensive service.

    MIDTOWNPC PlowSite Veteran
    Messages: 4,555

    "if you were to do the task of moving these piles again to the location which they were at the 2nd time... the proper location.. how long do you think it would take you.. im thinking about adding this into next years contract and Im wondering what to expect..?"

    "oh about 3 hours.."

    "ok but last time it took you 5"

    ok I kind of feel that you over billed me for this are you willing to settle for less and adjust the time so that I can call you out again another time?

    Id pay it, but let him know that you agreed to pay him and that was the deal but you feel your over paying and for that reason youwont be calling him again.
  8. deicepro

    deicepro PlowSite.com Addict
    Messages: 1,124

  9. TCLA

    TCLA 2000 Club Member
    Messages: 2,707

    This also is troubling.....how could it be that he didn't move any of the snow where you told him to the first time out?

    Sounds as if there was either a lack of communication on your part, or the guy is a complete imbecile.

    I wouldn't pay him for the first time out if there was no question as to what he needed to do, and what the end result should have been.

    You have a mess on your hands if this was left up for interpretation, especially if you have no way of verifying how much time he actually spent there.
  10. aus316

    aus316 Member
    Messages: 51

    A Friend of Mine does mine i plowed for him az a sub for a lot of years and went out on my own but to this day if i need his services i am always there either to offer help of just to monitor the whole situation(ie time spent/job done) not saying anything but eliminateds any issues (and all i am out is time and a few headaches later on):gunsfiring::gunsfiring:
  11. deicepro

    deicepro PlowSite.com Addict
    Messages: 1,124

    I have had a few guys push back or relocate for me.
    I told them point blank where to put it, and they nodded their head:dizzy:OK
    He turned out to be one of those guys that no matter how many times you tell him, he just doesn't listen and does it HIS way
    Another guy that, "Just doesn't get it"
  12. TCLA

    TCLA 2000 Club Member
    Messages: 2,707

    Very simple.....then he doesn't get paid.

    If he "just doesn't get it", he really needs to go.:nod:
  13. deicepro

    deicepro PlowSite.com Addict
    Messages: 1,124

    I agree, just stating the fact that some people should have nothing to do with snow

    MIDTOWNPC PlowSite Veteran
    Messages: 4,555

    Just cause they own the equipment does always mean they know how to use it.
    I have no idea how to setup and grade with a bobcat and create drainage or anything. No idea.. I have 1500 hours in a machine, in snow. No idea about dirt.

    If its the first time you have had this person they might be feeling you out on how you pay and how much you know.

    I use to get this crap all the time... guys suggest they bring a bigger truck to haul snow it will save me money and I can load it myself, meanwhile its all I can do to get the skid to reach the top so really it takes 2x longer... or do it at 8am instead of 5am so we wont distrub meanwhile traffic is brutal.

    If I send my guys out to move snow and stack locations, I usually say..
    " all this has to go here... I want nothing here... should take you about 2 hours, then head over to this place. if your not done here at 2 to 3 hours, then call me" I usually draw a quick sketch... but thats for multiple sites. mind you these are my own operators but still.

    If I get a call no big deal, head over and check it out or find out what the issues are.

    Some people can't just do things by the way you tell them... they have to be shown or guided.
  15. mansf123

    mansf123 Senior Member
    from mass
    Messages: 817

    Have him call when he starts then have him call you again when he is leaving. of course he could still be on his couch for 2 hours then call and say just leaving now but, i think most guys are not going to do it to you. Look at surveilence cameras if the store has them.
  16. sluggermn

    sluggermn Member
    Messages: 85

    He was told really clearly where to put the snow, it was built up around a drainage pond and I wanted it pushed into the pond/ditch. they did not even move the pile one bucket depth back and then went around the perimeter and made a flat face on the piles.
    I made it clear what I wanted done and it took him 2 try's to do it.
  17. NW Snow Removal

    NW Snow Removal Senior Member
    Messages: 533

    you gotta tell all your subs what the job will pay. no hourly rates. then they get it done the right way the first time and they often exceed the performance you would expect from an hourly worker trying to increase his pay. If I have a stacking/relocating job that I know will take 2 hours. I say the job pays 2x hourly rate plus transport and they always appreciate the up front pay expectations. Nothing left for chance or poor performance.

    MIDTOWNPC PlowSite Veteran
    Messages: 4,555

    Thats a actually a great approach and Im sure if its a bit more you dont mind.
    That is kind of how I lay it out even when I send one of my workers out in my machine.
  19. NW Snow Removal

    NW Snow Removal Senior Member
    Messages: 533

    to be clear. I would not pay for the two trips. Id pay for the trip that accomplished the task I hired him for. Letting subs take advantage of you is a slippery slope and if you are firm and fair everything will work out in the end.
  20. Runner

    Runner Senior Member
    Messages: 957

    I'm wondering if there is a misunderstanding in the prices. Are you aware that he is probably charging for transport time, also? many pieces of equipment like this are charged a minimum amount of hours just to cover this. In other words, if it took him 30 minutes to perform the actual on site work, you may still be getting charged for 2 or 3 hours + transport. On this basis. 2 to 3 hours at 2 to 250 an hour (low), 4 to 750 dollars. $200 transport - you have 6 or 950 dollars wrapped up. This is not an uncommon price structure for these pieces of equipment.