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Onsite paperwork and signatures? How much is acceptable?

Discussion in 'Commercial Snow Removal' started by Ramairfreak98ss, Dec 24, 2008.

  1. Ramairfreak98ss

    Ramairfreak98ss PlowSite.com Addict
    Messages: 1,931

    To keep this short, and not 5 pages long, we have some sub contracted work we signed for with a reputable company that I have done business with in the past and know the owners well.

    Since signing the contract, and we didnt sign for anything that im going to talk about below, the parent company that has subbed this work to them in bulk, is requiring onsite signatures from a manager at EACH location. They also provide specific "forms", a full paper sheet for each location and a new one must be done per visit.

    If we have 10 of these type of stores
    a 12" snow storm means we will likely visit them each at least 8 times

    presalt, 6 pushes @every 2", salt at end

    Id end up with 8 forms per store x 10 stores =80 sheets :(
    We are very professional with our paperwork, besides anything hand written onsite lol
    I take all paperwork and scan it into the computer, convert over to PDF files with $300 software, organize everything, and email it off to the company we do the work for.

    Now ALL of this data could fit on maybe 4 sheets of paper, 80 sheets is ridiculous. If we ever loose one after the service, we would have to drive back to the store to have it filled out again, wasted time/fuel/expense.

    Currently, in December since the 19th 2008, we've salted all of these accounts twice so far, both times over night prior to all stores opening hours of 6-8am. The parent company has informed us all that, when service is completed when the store is closed, we must still get manager signatures, IE driving BACK after theyre open to get them, but heres the kicker! We STILL have to service overnight for snow plowing or salting. So our crews go out say at 3-5am, salt the properties, and then return to the office, then what? I personally have had to go out to two totally different locations in NJ "usually after 9am" and drive to each location to get signatures, usually takes about 3hrs.

    We can salt these parking lots in less time on average than it takes to walk in and wait for a manager to become available to sign these sheets. about 50% of them either complain about something, don't feel the salting service is necessary at that time or want to check to see if we "missed any spots" :confused::realmad:

    I can only imagine how much this will escalate when we get a foot of snow here, our crews will plow 2" off a lot, have one guy run inside to have the form signed off on, manager checks the lot, feels its not up to his level of quality, refuses to sign or starts demanding things be done like more cleanout around dumpers, doors, trash bins, fire zones, parking space, more salt put down etc. I wont deal with this all season, i think im going to resort to finding whatever i can now way too late in the season and take my chances :(
  2. djagusch

    djagusch 2000 Club Member
    from mn
    Messages: 2,107

    I would talk to each store manager about the paperwork required. Try to talk them into one stop per storm. If it is a chain store they didn't request it but just need to do it so they may go along with it since it's a pain for them also. You maybe able to have them sign paperwork before the work is done (like sign 8 forms and I'll call you with the total used when done) or ask if you can stop by at the end of the storm to sign all the sheets at once. Again you would be some trust by both parties to make it easier for both. Trust me the store manager doesn't want to be paged every 2 hours during a storm, they have more important things typically going on.
  3. payton

    payton Senior Member
    Messages: 470

    well basic service charge for each time you have to go back.. that or take the store manager a 5th of scotch and get 20 papers presigned.

  4. mycirus

    mycirus Senior Member
    from Mass
    Messages: 589

    Charge them a decent administrative fee for all the paperwork.
  5. LoneCowboy

    LoneCowboy PlowSite.com Addict
    Messages: 1,760

    Is it in the contract???????

    It appears from reading your post, it is not.
    Tell them to go P up a rope

    If they wish to amend the contract, you would be happy to amend the price to reflect all this additional work.

    Their choice.

    Or, they can take a look at your paperwork and see if that meets their needs or some negotiation thereof but that amount of paperwork is simply ridiculous, clearly no one is ever going to look at it again, for any reason.

    CARDOCTOR PlowSite.com Addict
    Messages: 1,312

    since im in your area and also subbung for a co. that pickedup work from a natl co.
    i have to do the same thing. ill be honest its a pita but if we get a foot of snow (boy that would be nice)
    the 8 grand i would make will make going over after to storm alittle easier.
    if the store is open i usually check in if the mgr refuse i have him sign a refusal slip
    i have found most mgr dont have a problem with signing slips for service after their closed
    this yr we are suppose to stick a work sheet in the door when their closed to prove
    we were there

  7. 04superduty

    04superduty PlowSite.com Addict
    Messages: 1,354

    charge them for all the time it takes you to get the paperwork signed, if you have to leave your house in the morning to get the paperwork signed then charge them for that. if the managers dont want to sign the paperwork then you have an issue and need to take it up with the management company. get a new contract where they decide when to salt and take all liability that goes along with it.
  8. Ramairfreak98ss

    Ramairfreak98ss PlowSite.com Addict
    Messages: 1,931

    Well within the next couple days, they should have spoken to the parent company for these jobs.. Theyre going to try and negotiate a wage for our time spent to go back to each site. But even for $20 an hour, do you really want to drive your trucks/plows etc or your crew around for gas money after the services have been completed?:confused:

    Here is the CVS tickets were supposed to now have filled out EACH service as well. Same goes for these places as the others i referred to earlier. If not open at time of service, we need to go BACK after say 8am and get a manager to sign and stamp each ticket for service.

    Again, a 1ft storm means i'd have a ton of these tickets for each store serviced. This isnt the same as the full sheets i was talking about originally, this is only for a few of our subbed accounts. At this point im about to tell them to keep all of this junk accounts and go for one larger one we have lined up already :/


    Who fills out that much every site they visit? theyre only 10 minute or less salt jobs and under an hour for plowing :/
  9. lbfmd

    lbfmd Member
    Messages: 48

    this wouldn't be for a company that starts with an L ?
  10. Ramairfreak98ss

    Ramairfreak98ss PlowSite.com Addict
    Messages: 1,931

    the main one, yep.
  11. lbfmd

    lbfmd Member
    Messages: 48

    I feel ya, alot more paperwork then in the past and payments get slower, go figure. Dont know why on that form except maybe to try and fend off some of the "phantom plowing" but i agree with you 100%. We are thinking of doing the same thing dumping them and picking up some late season plowing just because of the paperwork crap and then waiting to get paid.

    RODHALL Senior Member
    Messages: 374

    not to be a smart@$$ but this is the reason i like working for myself.

    ME: i would be trying to find other work....
    Driveways @ $20 each sounds better then standing around waiting for someone else.
  13. Rc2505

    Rc2505 PlowSite.com Addict
    Messages: 1,245

    I feel for you. I can't even imagine having to screw with all that paperwork. I am sure if one line is filled out wrong, then you won't get paid for it, or it will take months to get it straightened out. This is the main reason I keep total control of all my accounts. As far as my subbed lots, I have complete trust in my sub, and if he says he was there, then he gets paid for it. I pay my sub out of my own pocket, and wait for the check to come it. In 5 years, I have never had any problems, and I don't anticipate anything in the future either.
  14. fernalddude

    fernalddude PlowSite.com Addict
    Messages: 1,106

    Got the same crap this year from some of my sites some of them are hotels. Now some are open 24/7 with a front desk others are extended stay places. Now the extend place close the front desk but there should be someone on site ie. laundry or maid worker. Now we are to wait till someone shows up to sign us in, cant wait till 3 am and dude is asleep. So we wait till they show up and bill them full rate. Now we have only had 2 small events during am rush hour bet there system works till the first early am storm and they get the bill for us waiting for a sign in.We have made our own form for them to sign, no sign in no pay. Guess we will sit in front of the security cams for a time stamp.:realmad:
  15. Ramairfreak98ss

    Ramairfreak98ss PlowSite.com Addict
    Messages: 1,931

    Yeah, i only see it as a bad business tactic in order to find any "out" in order to not have to pay out for services already rendered. If we plow or salt and they DONT pay for any paperwork related reason, you'd better believe i'll be in court with them next month, i have zero tolerance for this @#$@ these days.
  16. Ramairfreak98ss

    Ramairfreak98ss PlowSite.com Addict
    Messages: 1,931

    Yeah, 90% of companies arnt like that though. I pay our guys weekly, if we get a 2ft storm and make 20k, guess what, i wait darn near 60 days probably until i see that money and yet i pay out 30-40hours per employee, fuel, expenses etc all within the week. Sucks, but at least you know the moneys coming back in, just have to be tight until then.

    Ive had companies tell me that they havn't gotten paid yet so theyre still waiting to pay me.. MONTHS later, and were not talking a couple thousand either.
  17. lbfmd

    lbfmd Member
    Messages: 48

    Would not mind it so much if we got paid on time. remeber the days they Fed-ex the checks. I am guessing those days are gone.
  18. Ramairfreak98ss

    Ramairfreak98ss PlowSite.com Addict
    Messages: 1,931

    lol yeah, that never happens. and yeah, when your bill is due 30 or 45 days from service, and you end up getting paid 60/90/100+ days later, sure sucks:realmad:
  19. ahoron

    ahoron Senior Member
    from here
    Messages: 422

    all that paperwork sucks but,you will have proof of when you worked. I even had to take before and after pictures of one large lot last year when they got behind on payments. They have to do it because of some people trying to scam they. The best is sending the check uU.P.S with a signature required. Took me like 2 weeks to get the check, that if mailed would have took 1-2 days.