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New concrete

Discussion in 'Commercial Snow Removal' started by pohouse, Oct 1, 2009.

  1. pohouse

    pohouse Senior Member
    Messages: 322

    I'm bidding a new commercial location and concrete is just a few months old. Any special considerations when applying material to new concrete, both lot and walks?
  2. ducatirider944

    ducatirider944 Senior Member
    from Iowa
    Messages: 469

    No salt! Use sand & GO BIG RED!
  3. jomama45

    jomama45 PlowSite.com Addict
    Messages: 1,190

    Agreed, sand is by far the only "safe" way to adress it. Most ready-mixed concrete associations have similar opinions on this, for good reason. Without a doubt, concete less than a year old is the most susceptable to damage from any de-icing substrates.

    I would try to help educate the customer, & by all means, CYA!

    CARDOCTOR PlowSite.com Addict
    Messages: 1,312

    dropped a customer last yr because of several hundred feet of new walks. i suggested that they have the concrete sealed but the contractor didnt think it was needed. needless to say the contractor that did the snow service last yr damaged a good amount of the walks from over use of calcium.

  5. terrapro

    terrapro PlowSite Veteran
    from MI
    Messages: 3,912

    It should definately be sealed. The freeze thaw cycle is what you have to worry about. I don't think calcium had anything to do with the spalling other than increasing the freeze thaw cycle because the contractor did not keep a consistent application.

    I remember a conversation on here last year about new concrete and cretebaby who does concrete said sealed concrete a few months old should be just fine.
  6. Mark Oomkes

    Mark Oomkes PlowSite Fanatic
    Messages: 13,256

    Here we go again.

    If calcium caused the damage, why do contractors use calcium in the winter to help the concrete cure faster?

    #1 Is it air entrained?

    #2 Was it properly cured?

    Salt does NOT chemically attack concrete. Chlorides will not harm properly cured, installed air entrained concrete.

    Might want to do a CYA if they want salt, if either #1 or #2 are an unknown, you may be held liable for damages which would not be your fault.
  7. jomama45

    jomama45 PlowSite.com Addict
    Messages: 1,190

    This is the key to concrete damage by any de-icers. Freeze/thaw cycles affect the total life of all concrete in harsh climates. Often times, de-icers are are only looked at from a "chemical reaction" standpoint. The app. of de-icers merely increases the cycles more often than naturally.

    For the record, the ready-mix producers associations really frown upoon use of de-icer's containing fertilizer ingredients such as ammonium sulfate, ammonium nitrate, & magnesium chloride.

    You may find studies that differ from that opinion, but this is the "protocall" of the industry, & would be the opinion of the "pros" on the other side of the battle/court room. Just food for thought.

    And, Mark O is correct that calcium chloride is still acceptable in most concrete, at least up to 2% typically.
  8. pohouse

    pohouse Senior Member
    Messages: 322

    thank you all for your comments. I will speak with the facility manager about it when I submit the bid. I'm not taking the chance. Sand it is.
  9. 2COR517

    2COR517 PlowSite Fanatic
    Messages: 7,115

    Just remember that to spread sand, it needs to be salted, or warm and dry.
  10. cretebaby

    cretebaby PlowSite Veteran
    Messages: 4,162

    Just for the sake of debate. The use of deicers doesn't automatically increase freeze thaw cycles.

    So....Your saying do not salt the sidewalk, but to sand the sidewalk and to salt the sand. LOL

    Just shovel the sidewalk clean and spread what you need to and you will be fine.
  11. 2COR517

    2COR517 PlowSite Fanatic
    Messages: 7,115

    Yes, it's much more appetizing that way.:dizzy:
  12. ultimate plow

    ultimate plow PlowSite.com Addict
    from N. IL
    Messages: 1,770

    The idiots should of had it sealed. And we all know about rock salt and concrete.
  13. BigLou80

    BigLou80 Senior Member
    Messages: 558

    They don't if there is any steel reinforcement in there

    this will help with freeze thaw
    not sure what this has to do with salt application, if this cure went bad the concrete will fail no matter what you do or don't do

    it does attack the steel rebar, which will rust and expand. A little concrete 101 here, its very strong in compression but has little to no resistance to tension. Any expanding force(like rusted re bar) will cause lots of cracks and spawling. All you have to do is look at any bridge abutment around here

  14. jeff52984

    jeff52984 Member
    Messages: 99

    had a question for you all. I have a new driveway at my house and planned on plowing it this winter but people were telling me it might make marks/lines in it. I do not use shoes on my plow. But do not plan on salting it in anyway just push it
  15. terrapro

    terrapro PlowSite Veteran
    from MI
    Messages: 3,912

    Shoes will leave scrapes and might also leave rust trails, so can a steel edge with no shoes. Your best bet is a poly or rubber edge.
  16. jeff52984

    jeff52984 Member
    Messages: 99

    ok thanks guess I will just see how bad it messes it up cause there is no way im going to run a rugger edge also will be using this setup for commercial
  17. Bajak

    Bajak Senior Member
    Messages: 999

    I have to agree with BigLou80. All his comments are correct as far as my experience and knowledge with new concrete goes. Plowing any "new" driveway is going to leave marks. A ploy or rubber edge may certainly help in preventing these marks but in my opinion they are inevitable. Shovel by hand or snow blow (walk behind) is the only way to realistically prevent marking up any hard scape and effectively remove all accumulation.
  18. jeff52984

    jeff52984 Member
    Messages: 99

    I figured it would mark it up alittle but I have alot of driveway and sure I wont feel like shoveling it and do not have a snow blower thats why I figured i would just drop the blade on it but thank you for answering my question
  19. jomama45

    jomama45 PlowSite.com Addict
    Messages: 1,190

    Not looking to split hairs by any means, but It's funny, because I get quite a few customers (construction, not plowing) that ask what they can do about rust marks left behind from their snowblowers. I respect that people want to take pride in their property, but I often tell them that their driveway is only "new" until they drive on it.
  20. jomama45

    jomama45 PlowSite.com Addict
    Messages: 1,190

    This is probably the best, simple advice. The problem is that many concrete contractors (at least in my area) will continue to avoid using the best standards & practices, & their defense will simply be "I've always done it this way with no problems". The fact is cement, & ultimately ready-mixed concrete, has changed for the worst in the last few years (thanks to the EPA), & contactors either need to become educated & adapt, or risk being left behind.