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Need help, large commercial season contract inclusive

Discussion in 'Bidding & Estimating' started by Northsnow, Feb 10, 2009.

  1. Northsnow

    Northsnow Member
    Messages: 47

    Hey everyone. i am new tothis site and been plowing for a coupl of years. Mostly residential and very small comercial. This year on christmas eve, A mgt co contacted me to take over a local ToysRus. worked outgreat on a per push/salt/shovel basis. Now they have said they have been extremly pleased with my service and want me to bid on some of theKohls stores. I identified 7 to bid on in a compact route. Problem is, it includes everything, plow, salt, all season, one price. tell me if this sounds good pricing or too low.

    400 space lot with 2" trigger

    Figure 15 pushes and 30 applications of salt at 1 ton an application.

    my figured costs below
    salt at 4500
    labor at 3000 ( 1 operator in skidsteer 5 hours x 40 per hour x 15 storms)
    machine lease 6000 (bobcat 285 to use 10 foot push box)
    Fues and misc 1000
    total cost 14500.00
    season profit 10000.00
    seasonal price 24500.00

    1 " trigger i added about 5500.00 to that price.

    I plan on buying a used large international or similar salter dedicated to salting a set route and can cover aprox 8 properties per route so labor should e minimal.

    Does any of this make sense? Am I way off base and too cheap? I am also bidding on some large strip centers with Targets and Home Depots and will be bidding Tarets. It seems that buy dedicting a machine per store, and the lbor is pretty set, it should be pretty set. Or am i just an idiot and doing this all wrong? I want to make the changes, drop the res and go to commercial and grow each year.

    thank you very much for any help or advice.
  2. QuadPlower

    QuadPlower PlowSite.com Addict
    Messages: 1,056

    Some of your numbers are okay.

    You have salt at $150 a ton which is pretty good.
    Your fuel is pretty close.

    You didn't ad insurance and plates for the international salt truck.
    $40 per hour to pay an operator is high I think and I don't think you have enough hours bid in.

    You are talking about 8 stores (1 you have + 7 new)
    $20,000 a year is only $1,333 per storm based on 15 for plowing.
    That is only $166 per lot per storm.
    And you are only giving your self 5 hours to clean all 8 lots.

    Salting is $4,500 with 30 applications = $150 per application. That is okay if you are only going to use 1 ton for 8 lots. I don't salt, but that seems low.

    My thoughts are this:

    I wouldn't plow a Toys-R-Us for $166. Is your current rate close to this? If so, maybe you are doing a great job, but you are also saving them ALOT of money.

    If you are higher than this, then you could base your cost for the one T-R-U x 8 stores x 15 events and get a seasonal price that way.

    Good Luck
  3. cretebaby

    cretebaby PlowSite Veteran
    Messages: 4,162

    I think the $24,500 is one store
  4. QuadPlower

    QuadPlower PlowSite.com Addict
    Messages: 1,056

    Dang, I think you're right. I thought it was a little crazy for 8 stores and 5 hours and $166 a push.

    Then $1,333 per push is pretty good. Where are they at? I want to bid to.
  5. cretebaby

    cretebaby PlowSite Veteran
    Messages: 4,162


    The local Kohl is the same size you mentioned and went for $13,500 this winter for a Zero tolerance

    Did they spec 1" or 2" triggers?
  6. Northsnow

    Northsnow Member
    Messages: 47

    they want a 1" and 2" trigger price. $13500 just seems risky. are my hours too high per store and salt too much. someone said with a skidsteer and pushbox, the time to clear should only be a couple of hours. that sound right. they also said 1/2 ton per salt application. that would drastically change numbers.
  7. JD Dave

    JD Dave PlowSite Fanatic
    Messages: 11,194

    You'd need your head checked to do it for that. The $24,500 seems reasonable enough but I can't really comment because I'm not in your area. Good luck though.:drinkup:
  8. redman6565

    redman6565 PlowSite.com Addict
    Messages: 1,411

    good luck my friend :drinkup:
  9. cretebaby

    cretebaby PlowSite Veteran
    Messages: 4,162

    Its hard for me to imagine a Kohls with a 2" trigger but whatever trips there trigger( ha ha )

    JMO but 5 hours would be overkill I would say 2 would be a little shy with the 2" trigger

    The $5500 (22%) upcharge for the 1" trigger might be a bit much since it will cut way down on the salt usage

    The local Kohls is about 4 acres plus so 1 ton would be a good number to bid

    My only question is do you think you will be there 15/30 times for a 2" trigger?

    Do I dare ask what Maint Co?
  10. cretebaby

    cretebaby PlowSite Veteran
    Messages: 4,162

    Agrred JD

    But I would be tickled pink to do one for $24,500 even for a zero tolerance
  11. Northsnow

    Northsnow Member
    Messages: 47

    i was figuring worst case with the 15 / 30. I just dont want to get caught with my pants down. These seven Kohls stores are seasonal. I guess i can recover any decrease in profits due to a busy 09-10 seson with my t-r-u and b-r-u accounts. So does 30 per hour sound better for a skid operator? i want to find quality guys. In addition, if a couple of hours or a little more can cover alot, the other stores are about 100 yards away in many cases, they can double a property. so based on those new numbers on a two inch being only 13 events and 25 applications

    equipement lease 6000.00
    salt 3750.00
    labor 1170.00 (3 x 30 ph x 13 events)
    fuel and misc 1000.00
    total cost 11920.00
    markup 10000.00
    seasonal contract 21920.00

    and 1" trigger goe to 20 events and 40 applications
    increase in labor 630.00 (3 x 30 x 7)
    increase in salt 2250.00 (150 x 15)
    total increase 2880.00
    2"price 21920.00
    1" price 24800.00

    plus with multiple acounts with their very close proximity, i could share 1 machine per two stores if it works out that way to increase bottom lie. As for insurance, I am a general contractor and plowing will consist of less than 50% of our total revenue so my carrierr added it as a supplemental non primary business act as long as we do not exceed 1 mil in contracted work whih i never ever see happening. We already carry allthe commercial insurance and a 5 mil umbrella. the add cost to cover plowing was abou 350 per year. any other thoughts or comments.

    I really do appreciate all opinions and thoughts, i will take all comments with great appreciation. thanks again. i wish we had a good message board for my main idustyr like this one.
  12. blowerman

    blowerman PlowSite.com Addict
    Messages: 1,275

    Those figures might work, (per store) but what type of equipment will you use? From what I can tell, you need to increase the number of machines you will be using.
  13. Rc2505

    Rc2505 PlowSite.com Addict
    Messages: 1,245

    If you looking at leasing the equipment, would it make more sense to just buy outright 3 machines, 1 per two stores. Even if you looked for something bigger like a front loader, you could pick up an older used one for 15 to 20 thousand, and clear the lots even faster. Lock them into a 3 year contract, and buy something even newer, then spread the cost over the 3 year period. I think you could cut your numbers down to around 19,500 or so with a 1 inch trigger, and more like 17,500 or 18,000 for a 2 inch trigger using a loader instead of a skid steer. It would cut your hours in half with a 14 foot pusher on it. You might even be able to do 3 stores per loader and only have to buy two. Just look for a back up plan if one would break down.
  14. cretebaby

    cretebaby PlowSite Veteran
    Messages: 4,162

    I think hes figuring 1 bobcat for each store
  15. blowerman

    blowerman PlowSite.com Addict
    Messages: 1,275

    That's not going to work. Any snow over 2-3" and you're going to have trouble.
  16. cretebaby

    cretebaby PlowSite Veteran
    Messages: 4,162

    1 dedicated skiddy isnt enough for a 4 acre lot?

    What would you use on 4 acres?
  17. blowerman

    blowerman PlowSite.com Addict
    Messages: 1,275

    Around Milwaukee anybody with stores of size (Kohl's, Walmart, Target, etc) run wheel loaders. In small snows you can clear with skiddy's and trucks, but any snow of size and a simple drive around the block both you or I could tell who didn't have the right sized equipment. He's from IL, so it isn't like he doesn't get decent snow storms. What are the guys in E. Iowa using? I flew down to Omaha in our plane and noticed you had a decent amount of snow on the ground last week, so I would assume it can get heavy and deep.
  18. cretebaby

    cretebaby PlowSite Veteran
    Messages: 4,162

    There is several sites that size done with one skidder around here

    They typically plow with the storm and we dont get more than 1"/hr for an extended period of time so they dont have a problem

    I dont know how you would make any money around here putting anymore iron on it than that
  19. blowerman

    blowerman PlowSite.com Addict
    Messages: 1,275

    I get your point. We debate on PS the type of equipment that's needed all the time.
    Such as now, it hasn't snowed in over 4 weeks. I've watched guys use skiddys and barely clean the lot, let alone corner to corner. To sit on a wheel loader and watch it collect dust is not the easiest thing to do, but when it snows 3-4" of snow between 3 and 6 a.m with 1-2"/ hr. doing a good job becomes real tough without the proper iron..
  20. JD Dave

    JD Dave PlowSite Fanatic
    Messages: 11,194

    Why do 15-20k loaders breakdown, you think for that kind of money they never would.:rolleyes: