[gitrdun]

I hope I am not out of line by posting this in this section. With so many experienced plow experts on this site, I am hoping someone may recognize this plow hydraulic unit. For the last thirty years, it has been used as a lift for my homemade dump box, that is why there is a manual handle to activate the relay, and I replaced the oil filler bolt with an extended pipe and cap. My problem is that my motor has quit. I believe that I have found a motor but apparently it is available in clockwise rotation or counterclockwise rotation, and because I have no knowledge of make, or any markings on the outside of housing, I have no way to determine which way this turns. Does anyone recognize this perhaps 50 or so ?? year old unit. Thanks.

 

[Hydromaster]

They do make new ones...,

It could be time to replace it .

 

[gitrdun]

LOL. That definitely has crossed my mind, but sometimes when things are with you for a long time, they get sentimental value, so it's hard to give up on them and throw them to the curb.

 

[Mr.Markus]

Did you try taking your motor to a rebuilder, many talented guys for a couple hundred bucks will clean and refresh it. Almost good as new....
Google electric motor refurbishing in your area.

 

[Mebes]

If I had to guess by looking at the way the springs are mounted to the brush holders in the 3rd image I would say clockwise looking down from the back of the motor to the front.
I'd probably pull the pump apart to double-check that though before I put in my order.

+1 @Mr.Markus suggestion tho...
Unless it smells like burnt wires, it probably only needs brushes and bearings which can be handled quickly and easily by a shop that rebuilds starters, alternators, and/or electric motors.
I'd probably start there first too

 

[gitrdun]

I was out yesterday visiting repair shops and everyone so far says they just sell motors, no more repairing, but I have one more to try today. I did interchange housings to try to narrow down where the problem might be, I combined a Western plow motor housing with the old armature and the old brush set, and it ran fine, but it did not lift the dump box, so I assumed it is turning the pump backwards. The Western motor is a clockwise motor from what I could find out. I did have to use two brushes from the Western motor to make that happen(because two brushes are securely attached to the housing), they were a little longer than the old ones(how short do brushes have to be to not work anymore?) Another question that came to mind from this was, what actually can go wrong in the housing where those magnets are?, it is kind of the last place that I would suspect.
So I am suspecting that I have a counterclockwise motor but with so little experience, I was hoping to confirm that somehow before I order.

 

[gitrdun]

If I had to guess by looking at the way the springs are mounted to the brush holders in the 3rd image I would say clockwise looking down from the back of the motor to the front.

Is spring placement an indicator? I could compare the two.

I would say clockwise looking down from the back of the motor to the front.

From what you are saying, Does this mean it would be a counterclockwise motor?

 

[Mebes]

(how short do brushes have to be to not work anymore?)

Brushes wear down until they stop making good contact with the armature.
Sometimes because of spring travel or length, other times the wire that is attached to the brush bottoms out keeping the brush from moving further down in the brush holder so it can no longer contact the armature which I suspect is the cause of your failure based on the images you posted.

Another question that came to mind from this was, what actually can go wrong in the housing where those magnets are?, it is kind of the last place that I would suspect.

Not much. Usually it's just magnets bonded to the case, so unless you dropped it or otherwise damaged them they should be fine.

Is spring placement an indicator? I could compare the two.

Not always which is why I would want to open up the pump to confirm.

If you look at image 3 if the shaft rotated clockwise the armature rotates with the springs pulling them down.
If it ran counter clockwise it would be pushing the brushes into the springs.

This leads me to believe that rotation should be clockwise, but this is not guaranteed since I have rebuilt golf cart generator/starter motors with the exact same brush spring setup that can reversed by changing a couple of leads around causing the brushes to push out against the springs.

From what you are saying, Does this mean it would be a counterclockwise motor?

Well in the past CW and CCW were labled different depending on the manufacturer and application.
Modern motors at least the AC ones I deal with more often have moved to more of a standard naming system to avoid confusion CW lead end or CCW shaft end, etc. but I'm not sure if DC motors are doing this yet so it's hard to say.

Back to my guess...
Looking at the back of the motor (brush end) at my nose I think it should be spinning clockwise.
Flipping it over and holding the shaft end at my nose it would be spinning counter clockwise.

Again this is just speculation AKA your milage may very.

 

[gitrdun]

Thanks so much for your thorough explanations, that gives me a whole lot more to work with, I really appreciate it!

 

[Mebes]

Probably gonna catch some flack for this if it does not work but here we go anyway...

Driving home from work today I was thinking about other ways for you to determine rotation, and a strange idea popped into my head.
See if you can figure out a way to attach a drill to the hydro pump with the motor removed.

Your little drill is obviously not as strong as a ~1.5HP motor, but when it is spinning in the correct direction, it should be able to pump enough fluid to fill up the hydro lines and build enough pressure that either something moves, or the drill becomes overloaded slows down and stops from all the load.
If you are spinning the pump in the wrong direction, the load should never change since you are not actually pumping anything.

Spin it at high speed clockwise 5 to 10 seconds or so then stop, and feel the top and sides of the pump to make sure it is not getting too hot and repeat a couple more times not to exceed 30 seconds total run time.

Stop immediately if your pump starts getting hot since your pump will not be getting cooling and lubrication if it is running backwards AKA not pumping fluid.

If the drill does not slow down or you see no movement in the lines or piston, repeat the procedure using counter clockwise on your drill, and see if that works.

If you get absolutely no feedback from this test you could repeat it with the hydro line disconnected from your ram, and watch for fluid flow instead.

Maths..
I looked up a random unimount western pump for specs
1.04kW motor ~1.4HP
.0005 gal/revolution pump
Assuming 3000 RPM motor speed (because it was not listed) 1.5GPM is my estimate of the pump output.

Drill
≤0.5HP ???
.0005 gal/revolution pump
Assuming 2000 RPM high speed on drill would give your pump 1.0GPM output.

My uneducated guesstimate is that without load it should be pumping ~1 Quart every 15 seconds at 2000RPM, so the test should go very quick if it works in real life like it does in my head.

Good Luck
S

 

[gitrdun]

Excellent, Mebes, you hit a home run! A 1/2 inch drill with a 14mm 6 point socket lifted the bed six inches no problem. No strain on drill at all and no mutilation of the flat shaft on the pump, just had to pick one of four 14mm sockets that fit snug. So standing in front of the pump where the motor has been removed, looking at the face of the pump with the shaft pointing towards me, I am spinning the shaft clockwise to get the dump box to rise. Since the Western Unimount motor, which is classed as a clockwise motor, spun it in the opposite direction and got no lift, would it be safe to assume that 1.this is a counterclockwise motor and 2.direction of motor is determined by how it turns when you are looking at the driving shaft end. Am I on the right track? Just have to measure up the new motor that everything is equal, dimension wise, buy it, and I should be good to go?!

 

[Mebes]

Again direction of the rotation may vary from manufacturer.
If you find a Western one that fits my money would be on CCW since they called the other one CW.
Same company same naming system.

If however you find a monarch pump that fits they may not classify rotation the same as western does...

Maybe the safest bet is to buy it from someone who will either guarantee rotation or bench test it to confirm that it is spinning the correct direction before shipping it to you.

Counter ClockWise Shaft End (CCWSE) is what you are looking for.

 

[gitrdun]

I will make sure that someone guarantees CCWSE. Sure gets complicated without a model number. But the upside is, I sure learned a lot again, thanks so much for all your help!

 

[Mebes]

With a name like yours I figured we would get this solved either with duct tape or some old fashioned gumption...

Don't forget the updates, and to pay it forward.

 

[gitrdun]

One guy left in town that actually services these things, he said 150 to rebuild, or he can order a new one for 200. Since my housing was such a rusty mess, I opted for the new one, at least with him ordering it, if it didn't fit, he should be taking responsibility. Anyway end of story is it fits perfect, works perfect, and now I have a part number should I ever need to replace again. Thanks again everyone!

 

[Mr.Markus]

For $350 you can do both. I once had a salter motor go on me, I had it rebuilt and bought a new one. Having a spare on the shelf means minimal down time,especially if it’s in the middle of the night. Glad you got it fixed.
It’s been down 10 days now, I couldn’t handle that.