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Interesting read: Jones Act and Salt shipment

Discussion in 'Ice Management' started by NThill93, Feb 19, 2014.

  1. NThill93

    NThill93 Member
    Messages: 96

    Figured I would post this here for you guys to read. I found it pretty interesting since I sail as 3rd Mate unlimited license.


    There has been talk about getting rid of the Jones Act by Obama which personally I believe is a mistake. We lose jobs to other countries all the time why let these go too?

    Hope you enjoy the read.
  2. jhenderson9196

    jhenderson9196 Senior Member
    Messages: 615

    Considering the Jones Act also kept Dutch registered, large oil skimming vessels ( reportedly the best in the world) from cleaning up the Gulf oil spill, I'm not sure I agree with you.h
  3. NThill93

    NThill93 Member
    Messages: 96

    not the Jones Act, blame your President for not signing a waiver.
  4. jhenderson9196

    jhenderson9196 Senior Member
    Messages: 615

    Without the Jones Act: No waiver required. Can't expect a Pol to EVER do the the right thing.
  5. Mark Oomkes

    Mark Oomkes PlowSite Fanatic
    Messages: 13,249

    It sure would be silly to just let the free market run without government interference.

    You bet, maybe we shouldn't let Honda, Toyota, VW, etc, etc, etc make cars in the USA because the parent companies are not "American flagged".

    If you can't compete with other shipping companies, then maybe you shouldn't be in business.

    You do realize that by "protecting these jobs" we are ultimately raising the cost of doing business for everyone?

    Yes, I am a firm believer in getting the gov't out of business and our lives as much as possible. Allow the free market to do its job.
  6. NThill93

    NThill93 Member
    Messages: 96

    I believe that having higher costs to keep jobs in America is a price that is worth paying. Prices can be as cheap and you want but when you don't have a job good luck paying for it. How can you compete when you can hire a foreign flag vessel that pays everyone onboard 1/10th of what American minimum wage is? VW, Toyota and those other companies have US salesmen selling them bringing in money to their families in America, they have US mechanics fixing them, they have US plants building them. Would you buy a car that is built in Japan, Sold in Japan and shipped here by a Japanese company and no money goes to anyone in the US? The Jones Act was created to keep the US Merchant Marine alive, if anything they were predicting what would happen in the future since these jobs could not be outsourced.
  7. Mark Oomkes

    Mark Oomkes PlowSite Fanatic
    Messages: 13,249

    You haven't been paying attention to what's going on with the unions, especially the UAW, have you?

    The government should not be involved in protecting jobs that can not compete.

    If those other companies can do it for that much less, you're overpaid.
  8. NThill93

    NThill93 Member
    Messages: 96

    So drop minimum wage to 2$ and call it a day? UAW lost the Tenn. plant but does that mean they're going to hire Filipinos and pay them 2$/hr to work at the plant? When it comes to the Jones Act you don't need to hire from a Union many companies don't use unions, but they're still US flag ships. Average pay for a 3rd mate unlimited license is 90-100k a year, thats for working 12 hours a day average and 6 months at a time. That also includes losing everything if something goes wrong. So I don't think I'm overpaid. The Jones Act protects american jobs there nothing wrong with that. To relate it to plowing I'm sure you deal with a ton of undercutting by people desperate for jobs how would you feel when you find out the guy underbids you by 50$ because he can afford it. He doesnt pay insurance on his truck, no license no company insurance he lives in a home illegally doesnt pay taxes. You wouldnt want the Gov't to say he cannot do that?
  9. SnoFarmer

    SnoFarmer PlowSite Fanatic
    from N,E. MN
    Messages: 9,883

    Keep it as it is.
    those lowballing scum will take your grand kids jobs for $2hr so your grand kids can live in your basement and collect welfare.
    Is that what you want?

    mud huts here we come..

    shipping and trucking needs regulation and the private sector is incapacitate of doing it.

    ps that ship full of salt knew what it was doing....

    You'll pay more for a i=pad but you won't pay a few cents more to keep American jobs

    Last edited: Feb 20, 2014
  10. Mark Oomkes

    Mark Oomkes PlowSite Fanatic
    Messages: 13,249

    There shouldn't be a minimum wage.

    The gov't is incapable of regulating anything, either.
    Last edited: Feb 20, 2014
  11. NThill93

    NThill93 Member
    Messages: 96

    So I will pay you $.50 an hour to plow for me:):) I must say the Gov't does f up a lot of things, but this was implemented in 1920 when this country was a leading global force.
  12. magnatrac

    magnatrac PlowSite.com Addict
    Messages: 1,059

    That's a great example of a free market. The market will not get one to plow for $.50 an hour. The free market already supports much more without the government stepping in !
  13. NThill93

    NThill93 Member
    Messages: 96

    but what were competing against is another market. It works in America because no one will work for $.50 but someone from Africa will. I know a lot of foreign sailors and where I get paid 90k or so a year they get paid 20k and they live off that like kings. Its the same as having XXX country fly over 20000 workers to plow all winter long and make $1/hr and then at the end of the season fly home where $1 USD is worth a lot more than it is here. A foreign vessel would come here work port to port and then sail home, none of the crew would be American and the money would not come into the country except fuel maybe and taxes to dock and berth the ship.
  14. 90plow

    90plow Senior Member
    Messages: 739

    Gotta agree with mark and magna trac. The minimum wage is not protecting anything. If anything it's only a political argument. If a business is going to start losing profit they will adapt. Look at wawa and they're automated ordering system. There's talks of mc Donald's and Burger King taking that direction allowing them to fire employees and still make more profit.
  15. Mark Oomkes

    Mark Oomkes PlowSite Fanatic
    Messages: 13,249

    Knock yourself out, but since it's the free market, I don't have to accept what you will pay me. I'll find someone else who will pay me what I think I am worth.

    Insert the gov't into it and if I don't pay minimum wage I'm going to prison. Or, 40,000 tons of salt sits on a ship, instead of serving communities in need.

    You're making $90-100K per year for working 2,184 hours. Plus, you're off for 6 months at a time. Sure, you're gone for 6 months, but you also have half a year at home. I'd say you're making pretty good coin.

    The UAW was there to "protect" American car manufacturing jobs.

    How has that worked out for them?

    Legacy costs dang near bankrupted 2 out of 3 Big 3. On top of that, they made crappy cars that Americans didn't want. And the quality sucked. While the Japs, with no unions made far better vehicles at lesser cost.

    Sure, gov't protection is a great thing.
  16. viper881

    viper881 Senior Member
    Messages: 477

    I agree with Mark. Ppl wont take a job if they think they deserve more then what you are paying them. Putting govt in everything and every part of business is a huge mistake. They cant regulate anything and history shows that, so why do we keep wanting them to regulate more.
  17. jhenderson9196

    jhenderson9196 Senior Member
    Messages: 615

    When a law works to the detriment of the American people, as in the Gulf oil spill, it's time to change the law. I know a man who has spent his life working barges. The stories he tells of the millions of dollars wasted makes me sick.
  18. NThill93

    NThill93 Member
    Messages: 96

    See the part you are missing is that in America people wont accept $.50/hr but an Indian sailor will. You are looking at it as one american vs another but what we are discussing is one american who cant live of $1/hr vs another country where you can live off $1/hr. No one is saying more regulation the Jones Act has been in act since 1920.

    The salt ship is not the Jones Act's fault its simply the fact that they decided to ship it and wanted it done in 24 hours with no warning to the shipper. Thats like calling a tow company from Arizona and you're in NY and you want the car there within 24 hours. Here is why the Jones Act works the shipment of salt was sent foreign flag to Maine and was off loaded, now the company wants it in Newark(there's been salt shortage in Newark for a while so why wouldnt they divert the ship?) instead of paying US sailors to sail it they wanted the cheap guys to do it. Keeps jobs in America. Like I said before the Jones Act can be waived in emergencies such as Katrina.

    Again the UAW is American workers in a union vs. American workers that aren't part of a union.
  19. Mark Oomkes

    Mark Oomkes PlowSite Fanatic
    Messages: 13,249

    No, the part you are missing is that requiring someone to pay X for something that someone else is willing to do for Y is interfering with the free market and raising costs and prices artificially.

    Do you want to live in a free country or a fascist\socialist\communist\marxist country. (which the USSA currently is)
  20. indplstim

    indplstim Senior Member
    Messages: 195

    which is it? it cant be all 4 at the same time. im pretty sure I was able to set the terms of the work I was able to land this winter. I didnt have a government monitor telling me I can only charge $50 for a $100 dollar lot