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Good Riddens Lipinskis!

Discussion in 'Commercial Snow Removal' started by Ramairfreak98ss, Feb 2, 2009.

  1. Ramairfreak98ss

    Ramairfreak98ss PlowSite.com Addict
    Messages: 1,931

    One of the companies i deal with had been trying to negotiate to get them to stop forcing us to go work above and beyond that of the original contract from October 08... well they sent them a letter today, a day before the storm tomorrow breaking the contract and terminating all accounts sent to this company lol. Whats shocking is that the company that i deal with, was going to terminate the contract for numerous reasons prior, but felt it was best to stick it out and deal with the "BS" from this large snow removal company to limit any possible legal issues if they could.

    I think its a shock that Lipinski's terminated their contract with them because they're the ones who have $@#$# around with everyone this whole season so far. They are terrible to work for and i hope none of you little guys out there even consider subbing for them in NJ or any other states on the east coast that they deal with. Let this be your warning, its my opinion but coming from someone honest and i dont pull any punches with this business.

    I cant elaborate if they have paid, will pay or will pay the whole amount of what they owe the company or myself for that matter. But by canceling this contract MID SEASON, they are in a breach of contract for a number of reasons.

    The accounts they now probably will assign another sub-contracted company have left many other sub contractors suddenly with no work from this company, including myself which had still 4 remaining sites for this company. We earlier a couple weeks back canceled over half of our contract with them because i found out first hand that the parent companies including Brickmans were out salting the properties "my company" was assigned to be handling over the course of the 08-09 season. We removed several large sites, and i then took another couple sites, not close to us and for less pay, but it beats having 3 trucks sit suddenly throughout the rest of the season. It has been a terrible year, theyre lucky they're not dealing with us directly because i would have had my attorney so far up their a$$ they'd be crapping legal terminology already.:realmad:

    I sure as hell hope they get sued, they jerked around with other management companies, they jerked us around, it has caused a lot of individuals, companies and people to lose jobs and income this year ON CONTRACT for the season. You'd think the big companies would have their ducks in order and act professional and be a pleasure to work for, even if the pay is much less than servicing your own accounts.

    Im going to now have to re-visit each site, pull up all of our stakes we had put down earlier this season and im going to try and get a hold of whomever company they now have servicing these sites for this storm tomorrow and let them know of the problems they'll most likely run into.

    Next year surely HAS to run much smoother without these 18 million dollar a year jackos thinking they're running the show.

    I will be bidding on anything i can find, for snow removal and landscape maintenance for this coming season. Maybe a 100k account wont hurt them much but they piss off enough companies and 10 accounts like that will add up.
  2. lilweeds

    lilweeds PlowSite.com Addict
    Messages: 1,178

    Can you tell us how you really feel about Lipinski? I'm surprised your working 3rd down on the poll, cause from their pricing on things there shouldn't be anything left!
  3. Ramairfreak98ss

    Ramairfreak98ss PlowSite.com Addict
    Messages: 1,931

    lol there isnt, and we were supposed to get a little more than subbing for the middle company since last year, they took a small % cut and i didnt gain anything so they only made the extra profit, plus lipinskis underbids almost everything cheap. Cheap prices=cheap service and no body working for them.
  4. jenton

    jenton Junior Member
    Messages: 27

    boy, i guess you really are pisssssed offf....
  5. Brad3403

    Brad3403 Senior Member
    from Alberta
    Messages: 392

    But didn't they get their picture on the cover of the magazine that SIMA puts out????......hahaha
  6. tutianoburgante

    tutianoburgante Member
    Messages: 31

    Was any of the companies that Lip. broke the contracts retailers like HD?
  7. Ramairfreak98ss

    Ramairfreak98ss PlowSite.com Addict
    Messages: 1,931

    Yeah lol, i think they WERE #2 rated gross in the whole US in 06, you'd expect more from them for that alone. maybe thats how they got to where they are or why they're profits were so high.

    $1k plow job
    Client gets billed 1k
    Sub gets $400 normally
    -$400 from sub because of paperwork error, glitch or didnt complete within their time period specs
    =1k for them, They paid not a dime to complete 1k of work, bill client 1k and profit 100%

    sub is out time, employee expense and salt/supplies. Thats a real business moto.
  8. Ramairfreak98ss

    Ramairfreak98ss PlowSite.com Addict
    Messages: 1,931

    not sure, we never did any sub work for them that involved retailers like that.


    I contacted the Cheryl Higley editor to discuss briefly about her article on Lipinski and their "professional" management, and all of their tedious records that the article gave them so much credit for.

    It should read...

    Lipinski's is so professional, they require all sub contractors to supply all forms filled out 100% correct or else they will be in default and no payments will be made. This is the wave of the future and a very profitable way for Lipinski to simply shuffle some invoices and create extremely high profit margins and never have to be involved the least bit with the actual work. lol
  9. dlcs

    dlcs 2000 Club Member
    Messages: 2,160

    Well if they are not paying becuase paper work isn't filled out properly then that is called theft. I can see a delay in payment but not paying the bill. If its because work wasn't performed in a timely manner, then maybe deduct some but not skip out on a entire bill. But if people would stop doing business with these guys, they would go away in a hurry. Why would you sub for them for less than 50% of their take? Even if you got 75% of their take, its still too little. I just don't get it. if you want to sub for someone, find a local company that needs help. Much easier to get paid.

    Sima will never get my membership, if they continue to promote these types of companies as successful businesses.
  10. beam

    beam Senior Member
    from pa
    Messages: 314

    we subcontract to contractors and pay all when we get paid usually within the month of work being done and we only keep 10% so if it is 1000 you would get 900.
  11. Neige

    Neige Sponsor
    Messages: 2,215

    So what did Cheryl say? Rama I have been following your Lipinski bashing for awhile. I have never had any dealings with them, so have no input either way. I do believe there are two sides to every story. I am the 11th person to respond on this thread, and you have responded 4 times. PS has 35,000 members, which I am sure there must be some who work for Lipinski. Yet so far no real other complaints. There is another Thread on Lipinski and even that one was more positive than negative. I disregard most posts when they say they know someone who has had a problem. I would rather hear from first hand experience. I am not saying that what you posted is not true, I have no doubt that you feel burned. I have not idea what was in the contract you signed. That being said, I feel for you, but that does not mean I will bash Lipinski. Learn from it, move on, and good luck next season.

    Is Lipinski not a successful business? Not something I would ever want to become, but I am impressed how they run such a large organization. SIMA is not about those large companies. Its membership is mainly small companies, and its all about Snow and Ice Management no mater what the size of the company. I believe the smaller we are the more we are open to learn new techniques, implement new ideas, use new products. It makes no difference to SIMA if you are a member or not, but it could make a difference to you if you are a member. :drinkup:
  12. Kramer

    Kramer Senior Member
    Messages: 386

    So with your post, who are you representing, your own thoughts or just reacting due to trying to protect SIMA??

    There are 2 sides to every story. No doubt. I don't have any knowledge of Lipinski, but big organizations aren't usually built on treating the little guy fairly.
    I'm not on either sided but it seems everytime someone brings up anything regarding SIMA theres a lot of reaction.

    Seems like this guy has some billing/business issues with Lipinski. Maybe SIMA should contact him directly if they're so concerned about their reputation.
  13. creativedesigns

    creativedesigns PlowSite.com Addict
    Messages: 1,929

    Ha! If they did that to the Italians or French plowers in Ottawa, Lipinski would be kidnapped! LOL tymusic
  14. kipcom

    kipcom Senior Member
    from Indiana
    Messages: 455

    If it's sooooo bad then STOP complaining and DO NOT work for them ! If enough people will not do the work then they will go out of business. Its that simple, I have seen time after time companys screw their subs and what goes around comes around.
  15. Ramairfreak98ss

    Ramairfreak98ss PlowSite.com Addict
    Messages: 1,931

    Well if some of us on here charge $250 per push, they come in and take the work in bulk for $150 a push. So even if you got 100% of their profit off the client, its already working for a lot less than if you were direct.

    you probably get about 75% which isnt much considering they lowballed the heck out of the jobs to get them.
  16. Ramairfreak98ss

    Ramairfreak98ss PlowSite.com Addict
    Messages: 1,931

    Sure Neige, theres always going to be 2 sides.

    Their side will say we/everyone failed to show up on time, failed to offer top notch service, and failed to complete all requirements of the contract.

    With these dictionary thick contracts from some companies, if you fill up your truck at the wrong time of day your in technical breach of contract not abiding by some line of legal jargon in their terms of service :realmad:

    I do not work for them, i never worked directly for them and wont ever. Maybe other companies out there that possibly visit plow site dont search for them, or they just decide not to post about it. Maybe they'd rather deal with their BS, and just finally get paid than not get paid so they keep their mouth shut.

    I cant lose anything over spewing dirt about them so i'll speak freely about it. They don't owe me money right now, i don't do any work for them and don't deal with them at all.

    If you really want to know how their sub contractors feel about them, and if Lipinski thinks that they DO treat them at least fairly, why would they not offer some references?

    Have them offer you 10 that they've had do work for them this season, call and find out what they say, im sure it won't be sweat and peachy. Then again, they'd never offer this info so it won't ever give you peace of mind.

    I know that Lipinski calls up other "large" snow removal companies, starts telling THEM how to plow snow, when do do what when there are guys out there that have been in this business for 20-30 years. How are you going to have a person with 5 years experience start telling another company owner to do something different when he's got 4-5x the experience in the field?

    If anything, maybe they are short on funds, they seem to nickel and dime the whole season, wait until the very last second when its ALREADY snowing for a half hour to go out and pre-treat.

    Then they want businesses plowed out and finished by 6am, sheets signed by 8am but dont call to start services until 4am? WTF, how many of you service a 2hr plow route with your truck? none

    If we service 5 of their small stores on one route, and they take an hour to plow each, you've already passed their "Deadline for completion" by the time they call you at say 4am, because you cant plow 5 stores in 4hrs.

    Heck, we would be out since 1am, doing other sites, because these jokers didnt call in time, i'd have my other trucks help on other routes. At 4am say when we get the call, it now eats up time to move those crew/trucks back to their original areas or back to other parts of town, "that we probably drove right past an hour or two ago" to start the lipinski contracted sites.

    Do you see how much they mess up the operations of the sub contractors, yet pay them less than any other company but have higher requirements than god?

    When you sub contract for another company, be 1 site or 100% of your sites, THEY are not the owner, and THEY do not run your company, Lipinski thinks they do and expects you to jump as if you are a driver representing their company only.

    We've been out at 4am to salt our properties, all of my trucks are back at the latest by 7:35am one morning. Rush hour starts, streets get bad/packed with traffic, slick. I get a call at 8:25am, go out and salt the Lipinski sites.

    What would you do? They obviously want them ALL done within 1 or 2 hours.

    4 truck routes, only a couple sites on each route are through Lipinski, employees already left and went home, would you call them all back in, in the middle of a small snow storm at 8:30am, to go out and salt for an hour then drive back? I'd lose money in fuel/salt alone let alone having to pay employees paychecks.

    Would you pay your employees for only 1hr of labor or expect them to drive 10-20 minutes BACK to work to only get paid for an hour?

    I'd take one of my f350s, load up with some more salt and go out and try to hit all of them. 8:25am i get the call. Guys left, i left again and am not in any of these areas going to meet a potential client. I reschedule, waste 30 minutes of driving there and back, pickup the F350, leave by 9am and am on one of the lipinski sites by 9:30am, keep in mind its snowing, rush hour still, accidents, not good.

    by 11am, i get done all businesses on 3 routes, because only a couple per route/area are for each truck for lipinski.

    Our 4th route was no where close to any of the other 3, so it was a hike to get there at the last minute, yet those 2-3 places were done shortly after noon time. Lipinski isnt happy and bitches. Unsure if they tried to not pay on these services or not...

    Im not a one man/one truck show, but you surely will feel like a jacka$$ working for them doing any work little or big when they almost purposely jam you up like this at the last minute.

    If i had a contract directly with them and they did this, i would have told them to eat dogsh1t on the phone at 8:25am, because im close to the guys i do work for, i ate my pride, and my ego, and did all the work myself. They dont like the time span, they should have called when 90% of every other company was out salting that morning.

    Theyre cheap, they wait till the last minute as to not do services probably because they work a lot of monthly contracts and have flat rate pricing. Why salt and have to pay a sub $150 if you can save all that money at the end of the month :gunsfiring:
  17. Neige

    Neige Sponsor
    Messages: 2,215

    Ramair, I could never work under those conditions. If I understand right you were subbing for a sub of lipinski s. So when it was time to salt, or plow, did Lipinski call you directly?Or did the sub call you. In any case, if those were the conditions, I would take a pass. I still have to wonder how they maintain 500 subs. A company that size cannot hire 500 new subs every year, its got to be working for some of them.
  18. procut1

    procut1 Senior Member
    Messages: 380

    Subbing works for some people and doesnt work for others.

    For the guy with a couple of truck and a couple of guys, to sign up as a sub, have the work handed to them, and all they have to do is plow, it may be a good deal. They dont have to worry about sales, invoices, collections and everything else. Its a nice arrangement. Yes, given they get paid.

    Where subbing seems to not work is when you have multiple people in line. When you become a sub of a sub. Or when you are a large standalone operation yourself.

    There just is not enough profit in the business to spread it all down the line.

    The way these companies make money is risk management. They get the contract for a set rate and take their cut right off the top. They guarentee their profit with little risk.

    They take the risk and transfer it to the sub. The sub now has to worry about getting the work done, paying expenses, fixing trucks, fronting material money, paying labor, and on and on.

    The primary contractor only has to worry about writing one check.

    In almost every case, the primary will side with the customer. If the customer doesnt pay, you dont get paid. If the customer is unhappy for whatever reason, that goes back to the sub. If the customers bill is 1500 and you are supposed to get 1000 and the primary gets 500. Well if the primary gives them a 500 discount for being unhappy. Well you now get 500. The primary still gets his 500.

    Its a tough game.

    I have been on all sides of this.

    Ive been the primary, ive been the sub, and ive been the sub of a sub.

    Each person up the line has the goal of making money while transferring the risk down the line.

    Its all a matter of having the right people in the right positions.

    If youre a sub, and you have a larger overhead than your primary contractor....What makes you think you can do the job at 30% less and still make it?

    I did it for a few years. Did 200k in snow work as a sub., and finished each season more in debt than when I started. i dont think i ever slept.

    When the primary contractor is in bed and gets a call about a snowball on a sidewalk after you just got home from being out 40 hours, he doesnt want to hear it.

    He takes the call, tells the customer in a happy voice "No problem, we;re on our way"

    Now he gets on the phone to you.....Tells you "The customer is very unhappy, you have to get out there right now or youre not getting paid"

    Then he rolls back over under the covers, and you want to jump off a bridge until spring.
  19. procut1

    procut1 Senior Member
    Messages: 380

    The more people in the line, the more people that have their hands grabbing your nuts.

    As the sub of a sub, you have to worry about getting paid yourself, and hoping the sub gets paid, and hoping, the primary gets paid, then hoping the management company gets paid, and hoping the customer pays them.

    Think about if everyone up the line waits a few extra days to bill......

    You have ALL the expenses. They are just waiting for profit in their checks meanwhile you are waiting for the money to pay employees, payments, trucks, salts, vendors, repairs...etc etc etc.

    If the primary is paid late.....big deal....they wait....They dont have bills like you do. They only have subs calling for money.

    If you get paid late....You may be parking your trucks and eating a lot of mac and cheese with employees standing on your front porch.
  20. tls22

    tls22 PlowSite Veteran
    Messages: 4,264

    I dont understand why people continue to work like this. This guy gets the contracts....gives it to this guy....then that guy gives it to you. To me its one of the most **** up ways to work. There is no shock that this guys dont pay you until July for a storm in December. Its not that hard to get your own accounts or sub-contract for a guy with his own accounts. I feel if plowers continue to do business like this, threads such at this one will continue to happen.

    I would got get your own accounts and cut out the 4-5 diff middle men.
    Last edited by a moderator: Dec 12, 2009