Dumb idea?

Discussion in 'Heavy Equipment' started by Aerospace Eng, Dec 16, 2019.

  1. Aerospace Eng

    Aerospace Eng PlowSite.com Addict
    Messages: 1,496

    I just won this tug at an auction...

    4426_74_2.jpg

    4426_74_6.jpg

    Mainly as an upgrade in the aircraft tug department (They can push C-130s around), but my mind wanders.... could I use it to push snow and retire the telehandler box to backup/pushing back piles status?

    Also, one of the problems I have when pushing between hangar rows with my articulated truck is the tails off the edge of the box plow on my articulated truck, as well as inefficiency for small (0-1") snowfalls.

    Here's a spec sheet for the current production model:

    http://www.nmc-wollard.com/uploads/content_files/files/MB4 Lit-V1-sml.pdf

    It's 19,000 lb, has a 205 hp cummins 5.9l in it (the brochure is for the current production with a 190 hp 6.7). It has a funk 2000 transmission, with 6 forward and 3 reverse speeds, and hydraulic pump pads. No suspension, but Dana 212 axles front and rear, 6:1 reduction with enclosed wet brakes. Top speed about 25 mph.

    With 4 wheel steer and an 83" wheelbase, it is nice and maneuverable, being able to U-turn in a 25' wide space (about 10' less than a Jeep CJ).

    It is probably best thought of as a boomless telehandler.

    I was thinking I could put a MP type plow on it (not sure if I would have the budget), so I could both windrow and push, and use the articulated truck just for the larger snows. Obviously, this setup would not stack like a telehandler or loader, but we are usually pushing into piles that the airport blower then blows over the fence into the detention pond.

    If I put a plow on it, I'm thinking that I would put a full hydraulic system in it rather than use an electro-hydraulic power pack. I would also want a minimum of 12' in a box configuration, based on how long it takes me with the forklift when I use it.

    So, do I try to put a plow on it?
    If so, what?
     
  2. Ajlawn1

    Ajlawn1 PlowSite Fanatic
    Messages: 5,787

  3. dieselss

    dieselss PlowSite Fanatic
    Messages: 13,558

    iceyman likes this.
  4. Mebes

    Mebes Senior Member
    Messages: 696

    This bit made me lol.
    Sno, I am disappoint, go to your room.

    Good luck, and subbed
     
  5. fireball

    fireball PlowSite.com Veteran
    Messages: 574

    Nope, it is a viable option. I see them all the time in rural areas mostly with wing plows and v’s. Only problem with them is once you go off road and get them stuck they stay stuck until you get something bigger to get them out. They don’t jack up easily. They will push a really big pile of snow. I always thought they were kinda slow but they are faster than bulldozers. Big plus is you don’t pay much for them at the auction since you are the only one bidding
     
  6. OP
    OP
    Aerospace Eng

    Aerospace Eng PlowSite.com Addict
    Messages: 1,496

    So I was googling around, and found this....No, I'm not going to bid on it.

    https://www.govdeals.com/index.cfm?fa=Main.Item&itemid=139&acctid=8636

    However, it is pushing a 22' plow, and it doesn't look like there is a lot of added weight in the kingpin area. As far as I can tell, these trucks are about 21,000 lb empty. The tug is 20,000 lb.

    Therefore, I think what I am going to do in the short term is to build a set of brackets for a 30.5" pin spacing municipal plow, as well as a cylinder and lift arm, and see how well I can push my 22' plow with it. The tug is about the same weight, and the weight is evenly distributed.

    The tug wheel base is short at 7', so I expect that I will get some front end push. If it is simply a matter of traction, the axles are good to 8000 kg each, so I can load the tug up to 34,000 lb or so.

    The plow will eventually go on my second articulated truck, and I'll get something shorter for maneuvering between the hangars, but this way I can get an idea as to how big a plow I can push.
     
    jonniesmooth and Klaibs27 like this.
  7. extremepusher

    extremepusher Senior Member
    from west mi
    Messages: 331

    There was a guy plowing mall of America using them to plow with. Running 11' blades he made to plow with.
     
  8. FredG

    FredG PlowSite Fanatic
    Messages: 12,154

    Dennis, lots of guys use them for snow, they will bust through a minici windrow at the entrance with a straight blade like nothing. Probably just as fast or faster then the telehandler.

    I almost bought one but the road speed was slow otherwise I would of. In your case you don't have to worry about roading it. Yours is a nice heavy one, the one I was going to purchase was smaller.

    I bet that tug would be a mule in the snow.
     
  9. DeVries

    DeVries 2000 Club Member
    from Ontario
    Messages: 2,501

    I think you better stop visiting gov deals otherwise you'll be buying that plow too :)
     
  10. fireside

    fireside PlowSite.com Addict
    Messages: 1,598

    YouTube shamrock snowplowing. He has a bunch at one point they where building and selling them all done.
     
  11. OP
    OP
    Aerospace Eng

    Aerospace Eng PlowSite.com Addict
    Messages: 1,496

    Thanks.

    The ones used by Shamrock, along with the one for sale on GlobalGSE, are the PSI tugs. Entwistle and Coleman also built tugs called MB-4 by the military. All have slightly different specifications.

    The one I bought (NMC Wollard) has 50% more drawbar pull (16,000 v 11,000), 50% more weight (20,000 v 13,000), and double the horsepower (205 hp Cummins 5.9 v 103 hp Perkins T4.236) than the PSI. The speed is also different, 25 mph v 15 mph.

    If 25 mph isn't fast enough, Dana has different gearsets for the differential portion of the 212 axle, so I could theoretically change it to get a higher top speed at the expense of not being able to tow 160,000 lb. I don't need to tow that much (the runway isn't built for it), but I also don't envision needing to go faster than 25.

    The immediate concern is going to be figuring out the hydraulic system, since it is probably set up for steering only, without a priority valve, etc.

    I have ordered the manual (first call I made after winning the auction), but don't have it yet.

    I have also called Monroe, to get an idea as to the mounting pin height for the plow, but I haven't had any response. Henderson plows are typically 17" to the pin, and I have seen a Wausau everest at 19". However, if I have the plow frame flat, the pin is only 12" high. I'm not sure if they are designed to push with a little down angle on the frame to prevent riding up when the snow starts to build up in front of the blade.
     
  12. Mudly

    Mudly Senior Member
    Messages: 362

    Get you another junker 2950A833-D4E5-4EDF-83E5-1B399689FA41.png
     
    Aerospace Eng likes this.
  13. OP
    OP
    Aerospace Eng

    Aerospace Eng PlowSite.com Addict
    Messages: 1,496

    That's the Coleman version.....I think it's more appropriate for @FredG

    Here's a link to the Army technical manual.

    https://www.liberatedmanuals.com/TM-55-1740-200-14.pdf

    10,700 lb, 93 hp. It does have suspension, which the one I got does not have, and it goes 40 mph with its 5 speed manual transmission. It would probably plow better than a jeep once repaired.
     
    Hydromaster likes this.
  14. Sawboy

    Sawboy PlowSite.com Addict
    Messages: 1,890

    160,000lb towing? Wow. Just. Wow.
     
  15. OP
    OP
    Aerospace Eng

    Aerospace Eng PlowSite.com Addict
    Messages: 1,496

    Yep.

    Usually, aircraft tugs are rated to pull 10x their measured drawbar pull on a relatively flat surface. The drawbar pull is limited by the tire traction, and is typically about 80% of their weight, so a 20,000 lb tug will typically have a 16,000 lb drawbar pull, and be used on aircraft up to 160,000 lb.
     
  16. Mark Oomkes

    Mark Oomkes PlowSite Fanatic
    Messages: 30,699

    Just imagine what a tug with 100% traction could pull...
     
  17. OP
    OP
    Aerospace Eng

    Aerospace Eng PlowSite.com Addict
    Messages: 1,496

    Although I still don't have it here, the manual for the machine showed up. (Getting manuals is the first thing I do after acquiring equipment, and sometimes before.)

    Since weight was needed for the towing capacity, it's fairly substantial. The frame is made up of 1.25" plate. Front and rear bumpers are 1". Fenders and side panels are a relatively wimpy 0.75". There is a set of two 3" thick and one 2" thick plates for ballast, totaling 8"x27"x40" over the rear axle.

    More importantly, the priority valve has an outlet for the excess flow that can be used to run other hydraulics in an open center configuration. Pressure relief is 2500 psi, which should be enough to run the plow. I don't yet know if I will have to increase the hydraulic capacity. I plan on using a double acting lift cylinder to minimize fluid level changes.

    For control, my initial thought is to use manual valves, like you would find on a tractor, either directly controlled or cable controlled.

    However, I have a few questions, never having run a plow, and keeping in mind that I currently think I would eventually put a MP or HLA type plow on it, therefore needing extra functions for the wings....

    Is using a manually operated valve a dumb idea? My rationale is that with electronically actuated valves I cannot vary the speed of movement unless I go to a fully proportional control, which would be cost prohibitive. On the other hand, if I go electronic, I could put a joystick on the armrest.

    Do I use a joystick type loader valve, with the curl being left/right or do I keep the up/down left/right functions on separate stalks/switches?

    For those that have MP or HLA plows, what do you like/not like about the control setup you use?
     
  18. iceyman

    iceyman PlowSite Fanatic
    Messages: 5,204

    Those things are sweet
     
  19. Mark Oomkes

    Mark Oomkes PlowSite Fanatic
    Messages: 30,699

    Aero, you should be able to find a valve that a municipal truck uses to perform the lift and angle functions. My Sterling has 2, 1 for the front plow and another for the underbody. I believe they are cable actuated, but they work just fine. I can open the valve fully or partially just using pressure on the joystick.

    The biggest issue with the HLA\MP wing plows is the ability to use them on so many different platforms, it is difficult to set something up that provides control for all functions on one joystick\controller.

    For a loader, the 3rd function works for angling. But you need 2 more functions for the wings. So even adding a 4th valve doesn't solve the problem.

    Our Kubota uses the loader valve for lifting and angling and then the 2 rear remotes for the wings, so even then the operator has to take his hand off the loader joystick to change wing positions.
     
  20. Hydromaster

    Hydromaster 2000 Club Member
    from 406
    Messages: 2,458

    You can find a lot of joysticks that will control over 12 functions on one joystick