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Many commercial and condo associations have sidewalks that get driven over with a fully loaded zspray while fertilizing. Every day nearly everywhere. There would be an epidemic of cracked sidewalks if they were an issue.
Without getting into too much math, I can see a person jogging or riding a bike creating more ground pressure then any mower or zspray possibly...
 

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So in an attempt to look half way intelligent (this will take a lot of effort), what questions should I ask? And what answers should I be looking for?

@EWSplow mentioned a slump test and core sample.

Dowels by the doorway. My concrete fella thought they may have poured it under the doorjamb to keep it from moving...same effect as dowels.

Anything else?

I don't think anyone uses mesh for sidewalks around here.

I have multiple ways I can go.

I could offer to replace the one corner that is cracked. But then I might as well do the other section since I'm going to be paying a minimum load charge no matter what.

I can enforce my contract verbage stating we aren't liable for damage to concrete or asphalt.

I can ask a whole bunch of questions and act like I know what I am talking about. Including getting an engineer involved. Probably cost as much as replacing it.

I'm curious what he will be asking for. He said he would be contacting me soon. I really want to start replying, but my gut tells me to wait and see what he asks for. Better to hold your fire until you know what the other guy is firing.

I would like to keep the customer, just not the contact. Prior to this guy taking over, things were great. This guy seems to be trying to make an impression with his new boss and I am hesitant to go over his head at this point.

BTW, still haven't heard back from the airport. Trying to decide if we should poke that bear. It could stir up more poo or it could work in our favor showing that we have previously been accused of damage that was not our fault.
I'd wait for them to contact you. In the meantime, get all your poop together, so you know what to ask him and have some answers.
I guess if you don't hear from him, you might when you send the contract renewal.
 

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My guess is seeing its just a sidewalk they are not going to have a core sample or a slump test but you could ask if they have a blue print that shows the thickness, the strength and if it has fiber mesh or wire. Just measuring the thickness at the edge is not good enough, its going to probably be 4" at the form its in the middle that is what needs to be checked. Or if its just a junk batch of concrete but chances are getting it tested may cost more than just replacing it, But I really have no idea how much that cost.
My guess is they didn't do core samples or a slump test. This means they have no proof that the concrete was properly installed.
 

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Discussion Starter · #44 ·
I'd wait for them to contact you. In the meantime, get all your poop together, so you know what to ask him and have some answers.
I guess if you don't hear from him, you might when you send the contract renewal.
Summer contract is waiting their approval.

Winter is good for another 2 years.
 

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.

Dowels by the doorway. My concrete fella thought they may have poured it under the doorjamb to keep it from moving...same effect as dowels.

I could offer to replace the one corner that is cracked. But then I might as well do the other section since I'm going to be paying a minimum load charge no matter what.

I can enforce my contract verbage stating we aren't liable for damage to concrete or asphalt.

I can ask a whole bunch of questions and act like I know what I am talking about. Including getting an engineer involved. Probably cost as much as replacing it.

I'm curious what he will be asking for. He said he would be contacting me soon. I really want to start replying, but my gut tells me to wait and see what he asks for. Better to hold your fire until you know what the other guy is firing.
Out of these 5 I left from your post -

Not really, but depending on structure/etc its possible….I HIGHLY DOUBT IT though…if so, you'll typically see damage to the door jam before anything else.

Why? so you can just be a push over and not only take blame for things in question, but also take blame for things that are (painfully) obvious that aren't your fault?

If thats the contract, it seems like a pretty open & shut case?…Why all the fuss? Seems pretty clear to me, especially since this seems like a pretty obvious case of where your not at fault?…?..Isn't being in business stressful enough? I'm not a fan of scenarios like this, and the way your laying this out for me, tells me I wouldn't want to deal with this customer anymore than necessary, and would be looking for a way to politely part ways as soon as contracts allow….not worth the liability & stress.

Your good at acting like you know what your talking about…we all know this:rolleyes:…but seriously, that's probably a good play to buy more time…getting an engineer involved to do some testing is not nearly as much as it would cost to replace all of it, at least not from what I know….You shouldn't be paying for that…that should be between the customer, concrete monkey, & the Redi-mix plant (and the customer is who should seek out the engineer, DEFINITELY not the Reid-mix plant - those guys are typically in bed together - and if its a large concrete contractor, they will have someone in their back pocket as well)

That's a smart play, for the time being

My guess is seeing its just a sidewalk they are not going to have a core sample or a slump test but you could ask if they have a blue print that shows the thickness, the strength and if it has fiber mesh or wire. Just measuring the thickness at the edge is not good enough, its going to probably be 4" at the form its in the middle that is what needs to be checked. Or if its just a junk batch of concrete but chances are getting it tested may cost more than just replacing it, But I really have no idea how much that cost.
No, it wouldn't cost nearly as much
first pi i dont see any separation strip from foundation, so the concrete probably adhered to the foundation and would not float with temp change
the rest looks like poor prep, low test concrete, or too thin....
Expansion joint you mean, and no it doesn't look like it, but honestly hard for me to tell….regardless, I highly doubt that is the root cause…when what your describing happens, it typically doesn't cause a crack like that, it causes chipping (usually pretty bad) where the slab meets the foundation.
 

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Out of these 5 I left from your post -

Not really, but depending on structure/etc its possible….I HIGHLY DOUBT IT though…if so, you'll typically see damage to the door jam before anything else.

Why? so you can just be a push over and not only take blame for things in question, but also take blame for things that are (painfully) obvious that aren't your fault?

If thats the contract, it seems like a pretty open & shut case?…Why all the fuss? Seems pretty clear to me, especially since this seems like a pretty obvious case of where your not at fault?…?..Isn't being in business stressful enough? I'm not a fan of scenarios like this, and the way your laying this out for me, tells me I wouldn't want to deal with this customer anymore than necessary, and would be looking for a way to politely part ways as soon as contracts allow….not worth the liability & stress.

Your good at acting like you know what your talking about…we all know this:rolleyes:…but seriously, that's probably a good play to buy more time…getting an engineer involved to do some testing is not nearly as much as it would cost to replace all of it, at least not from what I know….You shouldn't be paying for that…that should be between the customer, concrete monkey, & the Redi-mix plant (and the customer is who should seek out the engineer, DEFINITELY not the Reid-mix plant - those guys are typically in bed together - and if its a large concrete contractor, they will have someone in their back pocket as well)

That's a smart play, for the time being
I'm guessing around $500 for the engineer.
There's really no calcs to do other than the weight of the machine, etc.
All you really need is an engineer's report.
If you do this, find a small firm (one man operation). I've hired engineers for various things. I always used the small firms that use a common sense approach.
 

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I know very little about concrete, am I nutty for thinking that pics 1-3 all look like the cracks developed from heaving and making the concrete bend concaved "\/"? And that pic 4 looks like the slab "bent" convex "/\" and then broke either due to heaving under the crack or missing substrate under the cracked portion? The cracks in 1-3 all look tight, and 4 is much more open making me think that 4 is the one that dropped.
I'll join the chorus of folks that would like to see a straight-edge over the cracks in the pics.
 

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Its already been answered about rhe absurdity of the machine weight theory.
If the theory of running off the walk with the machine were to be suggested (as it was) I would counter with the base was probably therefore only prepped to the form...and this is incorrect when building any concrete surface. The base should be compacted and prepped beyond the form. Again a concrete/cement/ monkey error.
 

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Discussion Starter · #55 ·
He's focusing on these 2.

20220316_093452.jpg


1648068036356.png


He wanted to know my thoughts on the email. I told him about a couple of my reservations regarding the email and what I think the problem is.

He is still thinking it is from the equipment running off the edge...now that the weight of the equipment has been debunked.
 

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Its already been answered about rhe absurdity of the machine weight theory.
If the theory of running off the walk with the machine were to be suggested (as it was) I would counter with the base was probably therefore only prepped to the form...and this is incorrect when building any concrete surface. The base should be compacted and prepped beyond the form. Again a concrete/cement/ monkey error.
Hense my suggestion to pull the mulch away to see what's under the concrete.
If you're late to the party, at least bring beer.
 

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Summer contract is waiting their approval.

Winter is good for another 2 years.
How good of clients are they? For good clients I tend to give a little. For so so or blah, I don't bend at all.

My 2 cents: Get written permission to dig out the sod next to the broken concrete, prove your case. If they poured under the stoop or doweled=not you. Bad/inadequate base=free and clear.

Stupid crap sucks man. Keep your chin up.

City inspections on sidewalks? Inspectors report?
 

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Discussion Starter · #59 ·
So on Friday I sent a nice email to everyone on the email that was forwarded to me, once again outlining my concerns with the claims being made; the history of these pieces of equipment and why it was unlikely that they were the cause of the cracks.

I got a not so nice email from the GC in reply.

Hi Mark,

Thank you for your reply below. This is clearly turning into a finger pointing exercise involving the owner. I will replace the concrete, because it is the right thing to do. I'm fairly confident it was not our issue, all our testing and reports have been approved by a third party testing agency, along with Cascade township inspections. I'm am however confident the person from your team clearing snow was not competent for the task. I would recommend using a shovel or snowblower in the future to avoid future damage. It appears that your equipment(operator) has failed your team on this account, I don't think you can argue that.

If your team is not willing to pay for or participate in fixing the concrete, that is up to you, but I will make sure it's fixed because it is the right thing to do.

Have a good day Mark!


I was flat out amazed, still am by this reply. Other than the testing, nothing else was addressed. I also like how he is trying to guilt me into paying for part of it.
 

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So on Friday I sent a nice email to everyone on the email that was forwarded to me, once again outlining my concerns with the claims being made; the history of these pieces of equipment and why it was unlikely that they were the cause of the cracks.

I got a not so nice email from the GC in reply.

Hi Mark,

Thank you for your reply below. This is clearly turning into a finger pointing exercise involving the owner. I will replace the concrete, because it is the right thing to do. I'm fairly confident it was not our issue, all our testing and reports have been approved by a third party testing agency, along with Cascade township inspections. I'm am however confident the person from your team clearing snow was not competent for the task. I would recommend using a shovel or snowblower in the future to avoid future damage. It appears that your equipment(operator) has failed your team on this account, I don't think you can argue that.

If your team is not willing to pay for or participate in fixing the concrete, that is up to you, but I will make sure it's fixed because it is the right thing to do.

Have a good day Mark!


I was flat out amazed, still am by this reply. Other than the testing, nothing else was addressed. I also like how he is trying to guilt me into paying for part of it.
You're obviously too nice... I would of never received an email back... More like a certified letter from Dewey Cheatem and Hall...
 
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