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Brine, Beet Juice, Calcium - What is the best product or combination based on my cost

11K views 37 replies 17 participants last post by  dlcs 
#1 ·
We are in a region were I can get Sodium Chloride for $.83 gallon picked up, Beet Juice for $.53 gallon picked up and Calcium Chloride for $.52 a gallon delivered. We are mainly treating salt at the spinner and are currently working on a truck sprayer for pre treating (1000 gallon). Should I just use calcium for everything? Please give me some advice. Ultimately we are trying to reduce our salt consumption at a cost of $135 a ton delivered and give our customer the best outcome.

Thanks for the help.
 
#2 ·
PM me your e-mail and I'll give you my recommendations.

Just saw your business card, but I don't feel like going through my stack of cards again. lol
 
#3 ·
I can get you a truckload delivered (+-4400 gallons) for 50 cents a gallon in Michigan.

While exact concentrations will vary slightly, our liquid calcium chloride product contains:
21 to 24% Calcium Chloride
4.11 to 5% Magnesium Chloride
1.68 to 2% Potassium Chloride
3.78 to 4% Sodium Chloride

Let me know if I can help. Susan, Jet Stream Fuels, 786-566-0195 scromer@jetstreamfuels.com

Have you seen our ad here on Plowsite? We have salt in stock -- bulk, bagged and brine delivered to you by the truckload. WE DID NOT RUN OUT OF SALT LAST YEAR!
 
#5 ·
LapeerLandscape;1895587 said:
I would like to hear what you have to say about it also.
I'd rather type it once, so send me your e-mail as well.
 
#7 ·
Email sent.
 
#10 ·
#13 ·
Defcon 5;1895798 said:
Wheres my email????...........I thurst for knowledge........:eek:
Didn't think your daughter was home to read it to you yet.
 
#14 ·
This liquid salt rookie is eager to learn too. We have been treating our bulk salt at the spinner with a state-of-the-art 25 gallon Tractor Supply 4GPM system for 2 years now, lol, but would like to move into more liquids. Eventually we plan to set up a liquid only rig. If I could get that email as well, that would be awesome. My email is basemanb@aol.com.
 
#16 ·
Beet juice is usually Mag based and the chloride weight is the lowest of the brine solutions

Calcium (probably mineral well brine) holds the most chlorides in solution

Sodium holds the second most chlorides in solution

Potassium isn't worth mentioning

So of the choices here's what you are paying for the chloride

Beet juice is about 20% chloride in solution--each percent of equates to lbs of chloride per gallon (the water melts nothing) -- so in this mixture you are getting about 2 lbs of chloride per gallon

CC well brine comes about 27% on average (hopefully you get more) so you have 2.7lbs of chloride per gallon

Sodium chloride (rock salt dissolved in water) normally is made to a 23.3% solution or about 2.3lbs of chlorides per gallon

Amount of gallons that equal 1 ton of rock salt

Beet juice 2000/2.0 = 1000 gal x .53 = $530 per ton equiv.
CC 2000/2.7 = 740 gal x .52 = $384 per ton equivalent
Na 2000/2.3 = 870 gal x .83 = $722 per ton equivalent

Each of these solutions will activate your rock salt at the spinner at almost the same rate--use the cheapest one per ton of salt equivalent
 
#18 ·
I do like your thought process Icemelters. They sell beet juice out there plain too, but we have all learned over the years that the beet by-products are not so "hot". Anyone adding water to nacl to make a nacl brine, IMO, is wasting time and money. Water, ice, is what you're trying to melt, why dilute your brs? Sure if you want to make a dusting go away at 30degreesF its fine but out of that your not accomplishing much. Treat it with an obpe liquid, preferably cacl based and move on.
 
#19 ·
Icemelters;1896337 said:
Beet juice is usually Mag based and the chloride weight is the lowest of the brine solutions
Does beet juice contain mag naturally?

Or is it being added? Like Magic or whatever the crap they're calling it this year.
 
#20 ·
Winteriscoming;1896414 said:
I do like your thought process Icemelters. They sell beet juice out there plain too, but we have all learned over the years that the beet by-products are not so "hot". Anyone adding water to nacl to make a nacl brine, IMO, is wasting time and money. Water, ice, is what you're trying to melt, why dilute your brs? Sure if you want to make a dusting go away at 30degreesF its fine but out of that your not accomplishing much. Treat it with an obpe liquid, preferably cacl based and move on.
brs?

obpe?

Please school me oh most wise one.

When applying sodium chloride to snow or ice, are we not adding water to sodium chloride? Are you saying that is a waste?

The only thing I have to say is that the claims made by some that they are de-icing with 50 or 60 gallons per acre is bovine excrement, at least in Michigan. Maybe out West where snow is generally a lower moisture content and the sun usually comes out after a storm.
 
#21 ·
Mark Oomkes;1896480 said:
brs?

The only thing I have to say is that the claims made by some that they are de-icing with 50 or 60 gallons per acre is bovine excrement, at least in Michigan. Maybe out West where snow is generally a lower moisture content and the sun usually comes out after a storm.
It amazes me that some people are able to say this to sell their product when they know for a fact that it's a grossly underestimated number.

Especially when they're in the same state as you...
 
#22 ·
Mark--sometimes I assume people understand more than I should. Beet juice is a wonderful tacifier--not a very good melter of snow and ice. Most ag products are developed to use with a melter--as you know--Mag, CC or Sodium will all work with beet juice. We find most mixtures that come pre-mixed with beet juice and sold to the unsuspecting contractor has Mag in it.

We all have to remember a lot of the initial sales material was created based from experiences with Lane Miles--NOT parking lot square footage. Today we have more experience with parking lot usage and I hate to see guys paying so much money for so little melting gain when they use additives. Especially in Michigan--other markets don't have what we have in brine wells.

I don't see any advantage at the prices being paid in this post--I'd rather keep over salting at $135 per rock salt ton than add any of these additives at any time at a $300, $400, $500 or more price per ton equivalent--especially in Michigan when (with a little financial commitment) can get well brine for less than .25 per gallon. These components do add value if price was not a concern--but weighing price with performance--not very profitable.

Just remember 100 gallons of salt brine is about 23 lbs of rock salt melting power--that's it. If you use it at the spinner you will speed up the melting process so your driver can see quicker results and you may not have to over-salt to get your visual results--it will not however add any additional overall melting of snow--It's not gallons you are buying--it's chlorides in the gallons.

Salt brine at .15 (23.3%)has more overall financial melting power per ton of rock salt equivalent than mineral well brine (27%) at .25 per gallon--(both of these solutions work to a negative temp value) which is normally fine for south Michigan winters -- for me it's a profit conversation only.

Even at .15 per gallon--you are still paying $130 per ton equivalency--so why would anyone try and melt snow with brine when you can simply use rock salt--if you have it. In the listed example if this guy is only buying beet juice and has to add a chloride to the mix--beet juice becomes a horrible financial decision.
 
#23 ·
So if you cut that in half, as some claim, they can clear an acre with 12-13 pounds of salt.

Simply amazing.

Beet juice has other benefits, it should not be a cost driven decision only.
 
#24 ·
I know Mark--crazy boasts by liquid sellers. We use about 150 gal on ave/acre--AFTER plowing. (That's about 345 lbs of rock salt per acre)

I know there are scientific reasons for beet juice and textbook answers--we used many gallons of Magic and Beet juice and have had little to show for it. The City of Farmington Hills uses it in advance of a snow storm as a tacifier for their salt brine -- again lane miles and keeping on the street surface--regarding parking lots--not much benefit to us--I'm sure others have different opinions

Our best environment answer is to simply use the least amount of chlorides to accomplish our needs
 
#26 ·
Right again icemelters- use the least amount possible to accomplish the most and you'll be doing the best you can for the environment. Its not the fact that most liquid manufactures claim their products are "friendlier" on the environment that helps in the long run. Its the fact that when you use a good one to treat your brs you will use tons upon tons of less brs which is where most of the chloride overuse/pollution is coming from. Example- contractor a puts down 10 tons of brs. contractor b, to do the same area with same given conditions, uses 4 tons of treated brs(with each ton containing 6-12 gallons of an obpe, lets say 25 gallons total or 250 pounds) the gallons of obpe are almost non measurable when compared to the 6 tons, 12,000 pounds, of brs contractor b was able to avoid using.

Most guys use de-icers to anti ice. Anti icers to de-ice and get all frustrated. And there is much confusion as to the "right way" to use each tool in the tool box that you have available.

Using a granular de-icer, brs/treated brs/ salt brine/etc prior to a large snow storm only dilutes the product as it melts the first snow that falls. Then, with cold ground temps, you have just created your own ice under the accumulating snow. The state of NJ does it all the time with straight cacl "pre-treatments". In the event of a 1-2 inch storm with higher temps that is the way to go on roads, burn it all off with the help of traffic. However in an accumulating event, lets say over 2-3 inches with ground temps in the twenties or lower, one should try to use an anti-icer. If they cant they are better off doing nothing, plowing and then de-icing. An anti-icer will melt snow less aggressively, create a barrier between the pavement and snow so that hard pack can not bond with pavement. Then you are able to plow it off easily and when you de-ice some of the anti icer that remains will aid in activating the de-icer faster. There are not many anti icers on the market, Magic ice be gone (or whatever they call it now), IB2575, IB793, Thermapoint, some beet juice products are examples of an anti icer. The goal in an anti icer being to have a higher amount of obpe liquids rather than just straight salts(de-icers). Oil on your frying pan. If im de-icing and I want to melt as much snow and ice as possible without using a lot of material I always use IB4060 treated rock salt. My point before was why try to de-ice with a brine solution?(such as brs added to water). You have water on the ground, just use the granular brs and avoid trucking around more water? Unless you are trying to make a dusting disappear with no traffic or you are in a region where temps do not fall much below freezing, I dont see the point of any using any straight salt brines.
 
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