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All Liquid Anti-icing/De-icing Questions Here!

Discussion in 'Ice Management' started by VS Innovation, Feb 17, 2016.

  1. rick W

    rick W Member
    Messages: 93

    +
    Can you clarify the part, or brand or a pic? We just built our first spray bar and love the t jets on the main boom but the two side nozzles (just ordered what someone else suggested) seem to shoot nicely way out the sides....but put WAY too much product out the sides. Looking for better choice to get 2-10' out each side of truck. Thanks.
     
  2. dodgegmc1213

    dodgegmc1213 PlowSite.com Addict
    Messages: 1,011

    Thanks 86 CJ, yeah I have to do something different I don't know what, the picture here, I have 2 holes drilled on the side parts, they hit each other and spray in the same area, (see the red circle) you can see these 2 sprays were off an inch or so but yet very close, as on the left side its the same....(see the yellow circle) this drilled hole is on the curve of the 90 degree elbow so I don't think that's bad. so the only thing I can think of is drill the side ones on an angle....next year will be different, I got plans already lol
    20161222_132644_resized645.jpg
     
  3. jbovara

    jbovara Junior Member
    Messages: 24

    Hello all, I am looking for some honest advice and straight forward answers on the subject at hand. Don't mean to hi-jack but my main question revolves around liquids. A little background first. I am small time but, by no means a "low-baller". I have a small operation with only 2 trucks both f-350 SRW pick-ups and currently have one tail gate spreader. The majority of my business is residential driveways with only a few small commercial accounts. All my commercial accounts are 1" triggers and all are salted after plowing. All commercial contracts are set up "x" per salt application and "y" per plow based on amount of snow on the ground at the time of plow. If snow fall is 1" or less, or forecast ed 1"-3" I start spreading salt as soon as the snow starts to fall during hours of operation. Once that first application of salt is spread other services to follow as needed. I am no longer taking any single family residential driveways until I build up more commercial business. I have no yard and no means of mixing liquids my self so all liquids would have to be purchased pre- mixed. I use a tail gate spreader because the salt is easy to store in my garage on pallets and if I run out I just drive back home and reload. So based on my research it seems that liquids are cheaper per gallon per acre than salt per ton per acre, is this correct? If liquids are less expensive I can pass the savings on to the customer to help gain more business is this correct and a good idea? I am going to buy the biggest v-box salt spreader or the biggest spray tank, without exceeding weight limits, which is about 3800lbs, to put on one of the f-350's. Will the v-box be able to cover more acres or will the spray tank cover more acres? I will be purchasing the liquids or the salt to go into the v-box from a vendor during business hours prior to the actual event and I am thinking the liquid will store better and I will not have the problem of the salt clumping and jamming inside the v-box. Never used a v-box so don't know if this is a problem or not? One concern I have with the spray tank is the spray bar. When using liquid how far apart are your passes? Is each pass the width of the bar? With salt spreader it spreads the salt a good 20' in either direction correct? I am concerned with the liquid not covering then entire lot curb to curb because the liquid does not have the ability to roll into places is this a issue or is it just me making something out of nothing? I planning on using liquid as a marketing tool as well, hoping that it will give me a leg up on the competition because not many people use liquid in my area; is this a good idea? I am trying to avoid doing what everyone else is doing or has done and really trying to separate my self from the crowd and don't want to by a v-box just because that's what everyone else does. Thanks for taking the time to read my post and PM me directly if you want. If you leave your number I will call you and we can talk abut it further.
     
  4. rick W

    rick W Member
    Messages: 93

    We are also just getting started in liquids, with out own brine maker and own sprayer. But...we have done commercial snow for 25 years. You must have a good rock spreader, simple, works and is standard. Liquid is a bit of a steep learning curve. When to pre treat, how heavy, when to spike blend...how much to have made and where to store. We are lucky we have a big shop and property. I personally think you would be better off to get the v box, and get some liquid snow shovel or whatever you have in your area that you can use on the sidewalks this year. Learn and adjust on sidewalks, and talk about the benefits, less tracking blah blah to clients. Learn that and consider brine on lots in year two. Cant see it possible to do both with no yard and little experience. If the sidewalks go well, look at making a prewetting system for your v box to spray at spinner. Lower amount of brine, still some benefits...and keep learning and moving forward. Eg...we have had very light snows the last couple days, and a quick temp drop after rain the other day, where all the low spots iced us. Liquid would have been a pain to spray lots, v box and gate open on smallest setting and truck going at a good speed. Very light salt, rocks bounced out 40' each side of truck, took no time and no product but worked way better then liquid. So, just need to have options. Just my 2 cents.
     
  5. Broncslefty7

    Broncslefty7 Senior Member
    Messages: 945

    what pumps are you guys using for handling the liquid? say from tank to tank or maker to tank? im having issues with this, i have been using garden hoses which take forever, or pool vacuum hoses with pool pumps. LMK Thanks!
     
  6. VS Innovation

    VS Innovation Sponsor
    from 56063
    Messages: 117

    Glad to see the setup in action! The systems are pretty easy to install. The hardest part is running the wiring in some of these new vehicles! I have a hard time taking a drill bit to a $75K truck!
     
  7. VS Innovation

    VS Innovation Sponsor
    from 56063
    Messages: 117

    We used to run holes in pvc booms on the sides of our sprayer to get some additional coverage. We experienced the same problem with uneven coverage, basically making the extensions worthless. We now run the boom buster tips that 86 CJ mentioned. There is large range of flow rates that you can get depending on the volume you need to apply. The tips that CJ is using are 8 gpm tips. These are a great pre treatment tip, covering about 8-10 feet out each side of the truck. We set our sprayers up with two on each 'boom' giving us 16 gpm to handle post treatment application numbers. Remember, if you are running a three lane boom, each boom needs to flow the correct amount to match your speed and width based on your application rate. In all honesty, these tips are very expensive ($100 + per tip) but have made our lives and results tremendously better. Definitely worth the investment.
     
  8. dodgegmc1213

    dodgegmc1213 PlowSite.com Addict
    Messages: 1,011

    Thank god my truck is rotted and only cost me $8k lol but when I go for a new truck in a few years, that's a different story.

    Well I changed the boom around again, I took away the straight up sides and went back to 45degree angle, a lot better, instead of 15ft wide it's only 10ft but that's still perfect for me.. it'll get me through the rest of this season
     
  9. VS Innovation

    VS Innovation Sponsor
    from 56063
    Messages: 117

    We were in your same situation 5 season ago. We had a small shop and a less than desirable v-box (meaning the shovel trick worked better than the spreader!). We decided to get into liquids instead of buying another spreader. I can tell you that the efficiency increase has been incredible and liquid de-icing is our highest margin work we do.

    Cost savings has been huge for us. Our brine depending on the cost of our salt has been anywhere from 4 center per gallon (salt reject blocks) to 12 cents per gallon (road salt). I have done a tremendous amount of posting on the cost savings if you read through some of my older posts. In a nutshell the cost savings comes from the reduced salt usage per acre (about 2/3 less), times savings of being able to pump into your truck vs loading rock hard salt, and the fact that all of our trucks and sidewalk units now can de-ice.

    As for the area that the truck can cover, you can plan on a 300 gallon tank (for your f-350) covering around 3.2 acres post treating and pre treating up to 10 acres (30 gallons per acre). The nice part is we run sprayers in the back of short bed trucks, something that cannot be done with a v-box.

    Curb to curb. Yes it is true that salt does bounce and scatter. That is good and bad. We have seen some bad salt kill in grass due to operators spreading over the curb. The nice thing about liquid is it stays where it is applied. This means you can run directly down the curb line and not have to worry about the salt making its way into places it should not be applied. We run three lane booms that utilize boom less nozzles that have a spray width of up to 30 feet per pass.

    It was a pretty quick summary, but there I have done a ton of posting on this if you go through my previous posts.
     
  10. VS Innovation

    VS Innovation Sponsor
    from 56063
    Messages: 117

    We run all poly transfer pumps, great pressure and very capable when it come to volume. You can find them everywhere. 2" poly transfer pump. There is nothing to corrode as all of the internals are either stainless or plastic. We have had great luck with them. Stay away from Chinese ones if possible! The engines last around one season from our experience.
     
  11. Broncslefty7

    Broncslefty7 Senior Member
    Messages: 945

    we are selling an 8k gallon load of our liquid to a large insurance facility up the road from us that is currently using liquids. our mix is replacing the following.

    Product 1 is a sodium brine with beet extract - we know what this is

    Product 2 is Calcium with an organic wood by product - i have no idea what this wood byproduct is. anyone have any idea?
     
  12. dodgegmc1213

    dodgegmc1213 PlowSite.com Addict
    Messages: 1,011

    Got the controller and wires installed, still have to do the valve and flow meter. My father gave me a great idea of using my computer mount for the controller, came out nice.
    20170103_134353_resized.jpg
     
  13. VS Innovation

    VS Innovation Sponsor
    from 56063
    Messages: 117

    Cant say I have heard of any type of de-icing agent containing an organic wood by product. Maybe someone has experience with it. The organic products in my research and discussions with other contractors tend to be an overpriced product which produces less than desirable results. Also, I cringe at the thought of any 'wood' product going through my sprayer.
     
  14. Broncslefty7

    Broncslefty7 Senior Member
    Messages: 945

    That's what I said. We price him at 1.90 per gallon and they jumped at it. Which is good and bad. Good because it's lucrative, base because I only have 300 gallon totes lol
     
  15. Broncslefty7

    Broncslefty7 Senior Member
    Messages: 945

    does anyone have any idea of cost per gallon a calcium/beet juice brine? i know formulas will very but i dont have any experience with the beet juice. i know a gallon of liquid calcium brine is costing us about .84 cents per gallon.
     
  16. VS Innovation

    VS Innovation Sponsor
    from 56063
    Messages: 117

    We have used a product from Tiger Calcium. It is 32% calcium chloride with beet juice additives and corrosion inhibitors. It has worked really well for us in the past. We were paying around $2 per gallon delivered (4500 gallon tanker loads).
     
  17. rick W

    rick W Member
    Messages: 93

    $2/gallon is not concentrate price, it is ready to spray product? Just asking as i am looking at getting a tote of calcium chloride concentrate to make my own 32% solution, to add into salt brine mix when needed for extreme cold snaps. Seems everyone wants to sell you a tote or more of finished magic sauce....but paying for likely 50% water seems kind of silly. Just trying to figure out what i need to know. I have several places that offer magic mixtures for around $2-3$ a gallon (Canadian), that include calc, some have mag, they have other corrosion inhibitors and chloride enhancers etc... just trying to figure out what is good and what is snake oil, then get a tote of it and mix my own water in with it and learn a bit this winter.
     
  18. 86 CJ

    86 CJ Senior Member
    from MD
    Messages: 306

    Rick

    Go get yourself a pallet of Calcium Flake and make your own at 32%. Grab a tote and a 2" pump and get r done. It's prob much cheaper then searching for it across the world unless you have a local liquid calcium supplier near you. We just made a 275g tote in 35 min this week, it breaks down quicker then rock salt.
     
  19. Broncslefty7

    Broncslefty7 Senior Member
    Messages: 945

    ^^ i second that, thats what we do.
     
  20. Broncslefty7

    Broncslefty7 Senior Member
    Messages: 945

    my problem is i only wanted to test this stuff out this year but we are slinging it so i am literally having a packaging problem. ran out of containers and dont have trucks big enough to haul 3-4k gallons. my retail store guys are literally assembling harbor freight 2 gallon pump sprayers all day......

    its a cadillac problem i guess. plus i wasnt planning on storing more than 1k gallons so now im a month out on a 5k tank.....