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All Liquid Anti-icing/De-icing Questions Here!

Discussion in 'Ice Management' started by VS Innovation, Feb 17, 2016.

  1. VS Innovation

    VS Innovation Sponsor
    from 56063
    Messages: 110

    Are you saying the price is to low for concentrate?

    The product is 32% calcium chloride off the truck. Not a diluted mixture. We add the calcium chloride to our brine to adapt to different temperatures we spray in. Once it is added, it becomes a diluted mixture. We buy a decent volume every season for dust control and de-icing. Just this de-icing season we have already used 12,000 gallons of calcium chloride. The volume we go through and the volume we receive the product (tankers) allows us to get it for this price.
     
  2. Broncslefty7

    Broncslefty7 Senior Member
    Messages: 870

    anyone care to run through a pricing structure?
    rite now my cost per gallon is 66 cents thats Salt brine with Calcium brine 20% added and 15% IBG added. Our bottle cost is $1.15.

    Rite now we are selling that bulk (over 275 gallons) for $1.90
    People have been showing up with their own containers we sell it for $3.00. And if they are buying bottled liquid off our shelves we are charging $4.49.

    Any of you guys seeing similar prices?

    the parking lot mix that we are making is just salt brine with 20% calcium added in and we are selling that for 60 cents a gallon.
     
  3. rick W

    rick W Member
    Messages: 55

    Ok, though of doing a pm instead of on the board, but figured it sounds like lots are trying to learn about this sooo...may as well ask questions in the public forum even if they make me sound kind s l o w.... :)

    Mixing my own. Dow flake sells for $.50 a lb here, i havent found it cheaper anywhere including ag supply stores. According to your math i need 1200lbs in 256g of water...so that works out to $600 in calcium costs to make 300g of magic stuff. $2/gallon

    I can buy one of these ice melter mixes...ready to go with 32% calc, some sodium in it too, some other stuff...all in a tote for $1.20 a gallon. So...if i buy one of these totes, and then add just 10% by volume of this 32% calc chloride mix...i should increase the effectiveness of my salt brine when temps are really cold. The makers of the mix, say you can just spread it like it is, but at $1 or $2 a gallon that is pretty dear. If you still get the benefits, i would much rather cut it 90% with sodium brine

    Did i miss something, or does that kind of make sense?
     
  4. Broncslefty7

    Broncslefty7 Senior Member
    Messages: 870

    so depending on the strength of the calcium, we buy 75% it costs 26 cents a lb. give me your email and ill send you where i get it from.

    3.25 lbs of calcium per gallon of water comes out to 84 cents of calcium per gallon to get calcium brine.

    i personally wouldnt add anything to something that is already mixed up you can mess up the saturation index and then you would be trying to spray sludge. its easy enough to make in house.

    we do it like this.

    2.3 lbs of salt per gallon of water (400 gallon mix)
    then in a spearate container 80 gallons of water with 260 lbs of calcium
    then add 60-80 gallons of IBG.

    we always mix in seperate containers, because people on here said to do it that way.......:hammerhead:

    i personally really do not like those ibc totes, i think the walls are way to thin on them and are beginning to leak a little on my brine maker. next time i will use tanks instead. im not sure about regulations in your areas but this stuff is like 11 lbs. per gallon, and any chemical you are hauling over 1000 lbs. you need placards and a hazmat card here in CT.
     
  5. Broncslefty7

    Broncslefty7 Senior Member
    Messages: 870

    Got my SDS sheets in today for our new liquid mix. Stamped non corrosive with 0 hazard pictograms!!!!

    Message me your email I'll send it to you guys!
     
  6. Rossy-BOS

    Rossy-BOS Junior Member
    Messages: 4

    Also new to the liquid brine category. VSI got me going on it With the spiking of calcium chloride what is the best way to go about getting calcium chloride? Should I get "Dow" flakes or liquid calcium chloride. If I go the liquid route what forum does it come in? I hear people talking about 32% when adding it, but does that mean it's a liquid with 32% calcium in it or does it come at 100% calcium chloride and you add say 10% of the amount of liquid needed to get the 10%-30% spike depending on temperature and conditions.
    Again I'm learning and a little confused with the calcium chloride area.. looking to get into it but want to know what I'm dealing with.
    Thanks for the help
     
  7. Broncslefty7

    Broncslefty7 Senior Member
    Messages: 870

    It depends on the Dow flake that you get. Ours is 75% and it's 26 cents a pound.

    I do it like this

    500 gallon of sodium brine

    Then 20% spike. In a separate container take 100 gallons of water. Then since mine is 75% it takes 325 lbs of calcium flake for the proper saturation. Always add calcium to water NEVER water to calcium you will melt the barrel. Then once it's mixed just pump it into the salt brine. Balance the corrosiveness and your good to go
     
    Rossy-BOS likes this.
  8. Rossy-BOS

    Rossy-BOS Junior Member
    Messages: 4

    That helps, now is it better to use Dow flake and make a batch or use the cacl in liquid forum. Which is normaly most cost effective way?
     
  9. Broncslefty7

    Broncslefty7 Senior Member
    Messages: 870

    I'm not sure I have never used or bought the liquid cal. I'd assume it would be cheaper to make yourself but idk.
     
  10. Doug from Vancouver

    Doug from Vancouver Junior Member
    Messages: 3

    Reposting here:

    I live in a townhouse complex near Vancouver, Canada, which is rather temperate most years, but this year is different. We have four asphalt driveways, each about 75m (250 feet) long. Two of those driveways are on hills with a 5% grade, the other two are flat, and I estimate that all four total about half an acre in surface area.

    We are willing to do the work ourselves, but have been doing it ineffectively, and a recent snow dump without proper treatment made us spend money to clear it which we didn't have, as the roads were very difficult to navigate. I'd like to avoid this again, and am willing to put a lot of work in. Whichever system I set up, I am not likely to need to use it extensively, as fallen snow tends to be washed away with rainwater within a few hours, and this is the largest snowfall here in over 15 years.

    I basically need to clear an area of 1000ft x 14ft, most of it already professionally treated and plowed, however still with snow/ice on the ground. Some of the ice is 5 inches thick, and I want to remedy this myself, so please teach me! :)

    What I'm looking to accomplish, now and in the future is this:
    To be able to produce a liquid solution to pre-treat and treat the asphalt in the complex where I live to eliminate slippery surfaces.
    To do this without the use of a motor vehicle (Cost prohibitive)
    To do it as cost effectively as possible, more so with regard to startup than cost of salting supplies. (Possible 4gal backpack?)

    I've read for a few hours here, and a lot of this stuff is new to me, and quite confusing, so I like to dive in with my questions. Sorry if some of them seem simple to you, I'm hoping to learn some of what you guys know. I understand that some of these questions are buried a few pages back, but it would be helpful to me and likely others if everything was in one place.

    Sodium Chloride brine should be tested with a hydrometer and be at 23% or slightly less, correct?
    What ratio should I have of Sodium Chloride to Water?
    Calcium Chloride brine should be tested with a hydrometer and be at 32%, correct?
    What ratio should I have of Calcium Chloride to Water, if I use that mixture?
    What is this specific gravity thing? It confuses me.
    Humidity here seems to be 50-60% right now. How will that affect mix ratios?
    I should include Calcium Chloride if I want a fast melt, or the temperature is expected to dip below -6?
    If I want it to be effective in extreme cold, I need to mix these two solutions just before using in the backpack, with a 90/10 ratio?
    How could I effectively mix the solution in the backpack and keep it mixed while I spray?
    How many gallons of solution would it take to cover half an acre? 50-60gal?
    Should I do this early in the morning if possible, so more people would drive over it early on?
    What type of place is a good place to buy Sodium Chloride and Calcium Chloride?
    Can I use table salt if I can't find bulk salt right now? (I expect this to be more expensive)
    To test this on a small scale for the people in my complex, could I put table salt and water in a spray bottle to do a small area, and if so, how much salt to 1 cup of water?

    Thanks,

    Doug
     
  11. psd104

    psd104 Junior Member
    from ny
    Messages: 11

    Can anyone recommend a spray system for brine. Maybe a 100-200 gal system. Thinking on getting into liquid , getting real tired of bags of bagged salt
     
  12. cfd511

    cfd511 Junior Member
    Messages: 7

    Im new to the whole de-icing parking lots but not to plowing. A lot of my customers didn't want it done . I'm out on long island and temps rarely get into the teens . These may be stupid questions but I'm completely confused. What is Brine exactly ( Just rock salt diluted in water)? Can someone explain what the simplest way to make it is. Also why do you guys mix it with calcium chloride. I just got a little confused with all these calculations.
     
  13. rick W

    rick W Member
    Messages: 55

    Just a few things..we are pretty new to this. Kubota (very helpful user on here) on here if you do a search has a simple and cheap to make brine maker using two plastic totes. Works fine for most of us. Just salt water...at 23.5% you test with a hydrometer you get off amazon or ebay, when mixed to that percent. You stop recirculating it and store it as its ready to go and will stay in the saturation.

    Sprayers... make your own (vsi on here makes really nice looking set ups if you want plug and play). Lots of good stuff on here and friendly people that will answer questions. Parts can all be ordered on line, i got most from spraysmarter, as dultmeiyer just seemed to make it complicated but either will sell the quality parts at fair prices.

    BUT...there is learning curve and I would really suggest you run both rock and liquid for a year or two. Eg...a week ago we pretreated with brine. Two inches of cold fluff hit and our lots were liquid. We looked like rock stars. Yesterday we got 4 inches of unexpected wet snow right at crunch time and at one of our places we plowed and brined as the last inch fell...just turned into a souply sloppy mess pretty aweful for an hour or two. Eventually melted down but rock salt like they used at the lot next door and at our other jobs was a way better call. So cold and dry, brine seems to be ideal. Wet and warm.....rock salt no comparison. Pre treating is a really good service that we will be using more. Easy, no rush, no full lots and works really well.

    Also making brine and transferring brine, and dialing in your maker and sprayer is a lot of trial and error and a lot of soaked overalls and salt water everywhere. We will get there, and overall happy but its a different animal and i would say a very effective tool but not ideal for all events and certainly not a rock or liquid choice...its a both...and when to use each one. We are still experimenting and have been very happy with liquid (not just salt brine) on sidewalks and think that is a good way to experiment and learn. We have one 5 acre lot we are trying liquids on. We decided to try it for a few reasons. Less salt useage...lower costs to us, better for environment and clients plants and floors, and to lower staff rush when its icy/snowing at the 5-7am times.
     
    Last edited: Jan 11, 2017
  14. 86 CJ

    86 CJ Senior Member
    from MD
    Messages: 306


    Glad to see you are doing your research, testing and learning out there Rick, keep up the good work, it only gets easier:)
     
  15. 86 CJ

    86 CJ Senior Member
    from MD
    Messages: 306

    Here are a couple pics I will throw in here of our work in MD from last Thursday through Sunday morning with air temps overnight in the teens and ground temps around 8 :) Storms were very small, up to 1.5" maybe in some areas, but because of the temps Ice was everywhere overnight and sticking around in the mornings.

    Quick pre-treat before possible Sat morning storm Photo Jan 06 11 38 28 PM.jpg

    Some 90/10 spraying with up to 1/4" on ground, lots were pavement within 10 min, these lots were not pre-treated Photo Jan 07 11 34 37 AM.jpg
    Photo Jan 07 11 53 11 AM.jpg
    another lot covered that we did a quick spray on Photo Jan 07 12 15 56 PM.jpg
     
  16. 86 CJ

    86 CJ Senior Member
    from MD
    Messages: 306

    Here is one of our accounts we did not pre-treat and had to really lay on the 85/15 cal mix to get down to pavement the next morning. Temps were still 19 out with ground at 10.This was after plowing, Photo Jan 07 5 09 56 PM.jpg

    Here is a lot we pre-treated down the street the night before and what it looked like when we showed up and during first plow with 80/20 IBG Photo Jan 07 2 05 22 PM.jpg Photo Jan 07 2 18 43 PM.jpg

    We plowed that lot, treated sidewalks a bit and let it sit over night in cold as temps, went out and sprayed light application of 90/10 at 5am the next morning, then I stopped back by at 9am and this is what the lot looked like, temps were still in the high 20's Photo Jan 08 10 41 47 AM.jpg Photo Jan 08 10 42 34 AM.jpg Photo Jan 08 10 42 58 AM.jpg :)

    AND here is another contractor that did my lot the weekend at my regular job and his lot yesterday when I got to work.

    Photo Jan 09 12 49 48 PM.jpg rsz_rsz_photo_jan_09_12_49_55_pm_2 (1).jpg :(
     
  17. rick W

    rick W Member
    Messages: 55

    Another part of the learning curve is the pressure and spray. Eg...the lot we are testing on is 5 acres. 100g/acre is considered heavy application. If i pour 500g down...on an inch of snow...depending on temp i could have water in minutes or.....some funky wet stripes for an hour. When we finally get it all dry and cleaned up, you can actually see each line of brine on the ashpalt, almost like a pressure spray line but i would say i was a little unpleasantly surprised by the melt down on a few occassions so far. Rock salt i am used to, and its easy to open the gate more or speed up or slow the spinner and get water quick...salt brine i have not found as easy to adjust...slowing down or speeding up or adjusting pressure isnt as simple as the boss vbx to control. Not complaining...just part of growing pains year one. Also i got a screaming deal on some bult dirty salt. Great price but holly $hiT is it a royal pain cleaning 2 inches of gravel and mud out of bottom of top tote every 400g batch in the cold. Fun though, overall love learning about all this but just want to emphasize its a slow process to implement and master. Even running back to shop and sucking two more totes of finished brine up into truck tank with cold stiff hoses and leaky tote fittings is a battle. Will have plumbing and application rates and storage tanks all in line for next winter so its a simple process with adequate and easy storage, reloading facilities. People do look at you really oddly when they see you spraying liquid when its bitterly cold out. Funny....told one lady we are spraying for weeds. She just nodded..ok.
     
  18. Rossy-BOS

    Rossy-BOS Junior Member
    Messages: 4

    So I called around for pricing on Dow flake today (calcium chloride flake) Hawkins in Minneapolis said this--

    "Here is the pricing for a pallet (56 bags – 2,856 lbs. gross weight including pallet):

    · PN 4052 – Calcium Chloride 77-80% - 50 lb. Bag Regular Flake: $0.3871/lb. FOB Hawkins"

    Is this decent pricing? Some say it is .26cents and others say it's .50cents per pound in their area.
     
  19. Broncslefty7

    Broncslefty7 Senior Member
    Messages: 870

    I dont add in the weight of the pallet lol. Call SCP in Windsor Connecticut and ask for Mike perron. I buy a lot of stuff off him. Tell him james from Rizzo told u to call. Scp is a swimming pool distributor, they may have a branch near you I have no clue. Good Luck.
     
  20. Broncslefty7

    Broncslefty7 Senior Member
    Messages: 870

    Anyone have any good time lapse videos? VSI is there a separate control on your system? i saw your remote on your website but dont see a turn the spray on button or like a turn the side sprayers on or not.