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who runs 20' wide or larger push boxes?

Discussion in 'Commercial Snow Removal' started by Ramairfreak98ss, Sep 19, 2015.

  1. Ramairfreak98ss

    Ramairfreak98ss PlowSite.com Addict
    Messages: 1,905

    in nj, they're fairly uncommon. We have a 16' protech and 14' new Boss LDR box which is badA$$. The 14' can outdo the 16' standard box 2 to 1 easy in the end.

    A contract bid for a college in NJ requires minimum, THREE wheel loaders and 20' or larger push boxes. No lot is larger than 400k sq ft wide open. I don't know why you'd ever have one so wide unless you're doing 700-1m sq ft enormous open lots.

    Our 524k JD loader weighs 28k roughly and can still spin wheels at times pushing the 14' box. What weight machine would be the minimum for a 20 footer? Even a 544k deere is hardly bigger than ours, a 624k is bigger but still we're only talking 31-32k in weight, a 644k is much bigger, now were talking 38-40k in weight but you're into nearly 300k loaders by then.

    Contract requires 3 wheel loaders, 20' boxes min, three skids 10' boxes, seven 1 ton or larger trucks with 8' minimum plows, and two trucks with bulk spreaders. We could handle the account if we wanted to not take on some smaller jobs we do each season, but three loaders would be astronomical in cost to buy/rent/lease. I havn't seen a 20' box parked at even mall parking lots for years now.

    Our loader is on another contract so we'd have to rent/lease three machines. I plan to see who has it this season and what loaders they have out there and see how they handle the site. I'm assuming its some construction company that owns three 10-15 year old loaders with three old 20 foot boxes.
     
  2. Superior L & L

    Superior L & L PlowSite Veteran
    from MI
    Messages: 3,039

    Years back we ran a 20' on a case 721. That puppy moved some snow ! The machine didn't have any problems, but a skilled operator is key. With something so big you can leave a lot of snow if you don't work it right.
     
  3. 1olddogtwo

    1olddogtwo PlowSite Fanatic
    Messages: 11,513

  4. Masssnowfighter

    Masssnowfighter Senior Member
    from ma
    Messages: 201

    you would be crazy to rent 3 loaders. for the same price as winter rental you could buy a CAT 980b or 966c. Or for even less money you could buy a Dresser 540 or 550. Five years ago I bought a Dresser 540 for $12k. It handled a 20 foot pusher no problem. I ran it for 3 seasons with out putting a dime into it besides painting it. Last fall I ended up selling it for $20k. So I basically made $8k to have a free loader rental for 3 winters. Renting brand new loaders just makes absolutely no sense to me.
     
  5. Masssnowfighter

    Masssnowfighter Senior Member
    from ma
    Messages: 201

    If deere is your preferred brand of choice a 644c d or e are all good cheap options. I own 644c and 644e. The c is actually my favorite of all my loaders. A 20 foot rubber edge pusher might be to much for it but it would handle a 20 foot steel edge with no problems
     
  6. Superior L & L

    Superior L & L PlowSite Veteran
    from MI
    Messages: 3,039

    Starting a very aged $12,000 desser at 1:00am in 10 degree temps with 6" of snow on the lot would make me have some very sleepless nights
     
  7. Masssnowfighter

    Masssnowfighter Senior Member
    from ma
    Messages: 201

    That thing actually loved the cold for some reason, it would start up with no glow plugs, block heater or starter fluid every time. Below zero it would need a little snort of starter fluid to get going. All of my newer machines where actually harder to start in the cold.
     
  8. Masssnowfighter

    Masssnowfighter Senior Member
    from ma
    Messages: 201

    This pretty ole girl never gave me any sleepless nights

    dresser3.JPG
     
  9. LapeerLandscape

    LapeerLandscape PlowSite.com Addict
    Messages: 1,588

    Its funny how some diesels start right up in the cold and some don't. A couple times I would go around 4 or 5 hrs before and start equipment just to build some heat in the motor, on one really cold night I let them run all night.
     
  10. Broncslefty7

    Broncslefty7 Senior Member
    Messages: 631

    i have a 91 kase 680, and it starts after sitting all winter instantly no glow plug warm up or anything, but then my new bobcats struggle. i dont get it...
     
  11. rob_cook2001

    rob_cook2001 2000 Club Member
    Messages: 2,181

    I agree with Mass snowfighter. We get less snow here than you but the cost for a winter rental doesn't make sense to me. For two-three seasons of rentals you can pay off a clean older machine. I have a case 721c with 10k hours. Fires up in -20. Next addition will be a dresser 515c or 520. Look seriously in to purchasing before renting. Good luck.
     
  12. Broncslefty7

    Broncslefty7 Senior Member
    Messages: 631

    im telling you, something about the old cases, they fire up with 0 problems when its below 0 without even sparking the glow plugs. its amazing.
     
  13. Masssnowfighter

    Masssnowfighter Senior Member
    from ma
    Messages: 201

    Unless you will only need a loader for a couple weeks and will never have use for it ever again renting just makes no financial sense.
    A few years back I had a huge lot dumped in my lap that required 3 loaders that I didn't have. Instead of paying a winter rental of $45k for three new loaders , I borrowed $60k from my business line of credit and bought three good older machines. My interest rate on my credit line was 4%, so after the 4 months of winter the interest I paid on the $60k was less then a $1,000 for all three machines. In the spring I could of easily sold them for what I paid for them which would of earned me $44k more profit then if I rented them.
     
  14. Superior L & L

    Superior L & L PlowSite Veteran
    from MI
    Messages: 3,039

    Wow, that was a deal on that dresser. Looks great
     
  15. Masssnowfighter

    Masssnowfighter Senior Member
    from ma
    Messages: 201

    Thanks. It didn't look that good when I bought it. Fresh paint and little sheet metal work and it looked good as new. It did have 4 almost new tires on it which was one of the main reasons I bought it.
     
  16. John_DeereGreen

    John_DeereGreen PlowSite.com Addict
    Messages: 1,886

    Sounds like a nightmare to push 400K lots with a 20 foot box.

    Our 621B's have 14 foot Arctic HD's on them in similar size lots and I wouldn't want to run any bigger than 16. Most driving lanes, at least around here are 24 feet from end of stripe to end of stripe. Not at all uncommon to have people park 1-2 feet into the drive lane on each side so now you're down to 20-22 feet. I've had a machine slide sideways a foot pushing snow before. I'd want at least a couple feet of wiggle room on each side.
     
  17. ServiceOnSite

    ServiceOnSite Senior Member
    Messages: 935

    That machine looks great for the age.
     
  18. Silverstreak

    Silverstreak Senior Member
    Messages: 168

    anything bigger than 18s are a waste rubbers rip even on "flat" lots the crown or unevenness is too much you end up using too much downpressure to keep from 1/2 the pusher leaving a hardpack

    also most islands between drivelanes are 20 the 24' protech i had at kop mall would not fit between islands; i had one wide open lot i could use it in which i did for a half dozen storms before rubber ripped

    used a 115z 744j 's struggled in 4" after getting halfway across the lot

    stick with 16 or 18s trust me ive had some nosy prop managers and none have ever gotten out the tape measure

    good luck!
     
  19. Ramairfreak98ss

    Ramairfreak98ss PlowSite.com Addict
    Messages: 1,905

    lol, hey i'm all for something that works ok, but yeah anything of age, is hard to get running when cold. Hell even our new skid steers and stuff start hard or not at all for a minute when its near zero out.

    And we would NEED to honor the contract MINIMUM with three loaders, i don't have the option to TELL THEM WE"LL DO IT ALL WITH ONE or one bigger loader. Granted i don't think three are needed but it looks like its well over 2m sq ft but no lots are that big that one loader cant go from one lot to the next and not get all of the bigger lots done in say 4-6 hours. Granted if it snows all night and stops at 4am, they're not going to want to wait until 10am to finish, so two would be good, three is just overkill, but two new loaders may accomplish what three old units do , by whomever has been doing the site for them.

    What weight/hp loader do you guys feel is minimum for a 20' pusher? Someone said a deere 644?
     
  20. Ramairfreak98ss

    Ramairfreak98ss PlowSite.com Addict
    Messages: 1,905

    I agree, we'll really press the issue of box size, as we have a 16 and 14' and last season only used the 14' and its still too big when a lot of cars load up the lot.. that specific site is 1.4m sq ft but nothing bigger than 300k in one area, so even vacant of all cars, the 14' is fine, 16' not needed, 20, forget it. Id rather run the 14s or 16s on them all, i can't see a 20 in NJ for anything short of airports.