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Western V Plow, Cracked Welds, and Creases!

Discussion in 'Commercial Snow Removal' started by Chuck Smith, Feb 8, 2003.

  1. Chuck Smith

    Chuck Smith 2000 Club Member
    from NJ
    Messages: 2,317

    Well, I plowed this storm with an F-450 with a 9.5 Western V plow on it. The plow was new last year, and only plowed once or twice. This year, it got more of a work out.

    I plowed with it for about 10 hours. When I was done, I got out and looked the plow over (when i started plowing it was dark).

    I was shocked to find 3 broken welds, and two creases! I am sure the warranty will not cover it, as it will be blamed on abuse, which is definitely a possibility, but not likely. I know the cracks didn't happen when I was using it, because you can see the rust buildup in the cracks. One of the angle stops is cracked all the way across the top. The other is fine. The one that is cracked, with the wing folded back all the way, the stop does not make contact with the stop on the A frame. It is about 1/2" away from it. I didn't have a digital camera handy, so I am going to use pics posted here by Dockboy (thanks Dockboy!) in another thread to illustrate where the cracks and creases are.

    Pic one. The same weld is completely cracked from top to bottom on both sides!

    ~Chuck

    vplow1.jpg
     
  2. Chuck Smith

    Chuck Smith 2000 Club Member
    from NJ
    Messages: 2,317

    The plow is creased in the same place on both wings. Again, thanks Dockboy for the pic!

    ~Chuck

    vplow2.jpg
     
  3. Chuck Smith

    Chuck Smith 2000 Club Member
    from NJ
    Messages: 2,317

    Now you may be thinking, "well it's an F-450, with a dump body, full spreader, etc..." NOPE. The truck has an 8' long flat bed on it. There are (2) Lesco spray rigs bolted down on the bed, and they are empty. The truck has major traction problems because it is so light (and the tire tread is all wrong for snow). It is 4wd, but it feels like 2wd with the lack of traction.

    Aside from the possibility of getting it fixed under warranty, that is not likely, as it will be fixed tomorrow, since snow is due on Monday. What I am wondering, is if someone beat on the truck and hit curbs with the wings folded back, and that did the damage, or if the damage was done while stacking in the scoop position, or hitting curbs in the scoop position. The plow is used in the scoop position about 70% of the time, and the rest it is angled making windrows.

    I should also mention that the Western 9.5' is a little different than the 8.5' plow. The lift chain is bolted onto the top of the hinge tower on the 9.5', and the positive stops are in a different place on the wings and A frame on the 9.5'.

    The cracks are a complete mystery, but the creases sound an awful lot like those that are common on Fisher V plows. The owner said the creases have always been there, but you can see the cracks in the powder coating, so I know they are not "meant" to be there.

    Geez, this plow is starting to sound like nsmilligan's Fisher, LOL.

    ~Chuck
     
  4. nben

    nben Senior Member
    Messages: 101

    Interesting. After doing a lot of reading on this site, I wondered how the Westerns Couldn't Be effected by these problems. Our 9.5' Fisher doesn't have any cracks, but has the creases. Our 9.5' Fisher also has positive stops from the A-frame to the wings, not at the rams like the 8.5' Western. I know that the A-frame setup from the blade back looks a lot heavier on a Western than a Fisher, but the wings on both 9.5' models appear to be identical !
     
  5. jbutch83

    jbutch83 Senior Member
    Messages: 227

    Chuck,

    Not sure if you saw my earlier post, but I also had a problem with welds on my western. I bought it new this year, and within ten hours of plowing, I had one set of ears on the quadrant cracked, on side was all the way through, the other was 3/4 the way through. Had a problem with my dealer getting it replaced, turns out he is a sub dealer, gets his plows from a larger company in Chicago, and they did not want to warranty it. Was told by Western that my dealer is not an authorized dealer, and he could not do any repairs or warranty work through them. After a month of complaining, they finally sent me a new quadrant, but no new bolts or nuts. Let me know what you find out, I would like to see how western deals with this.

    John
     
  6. Dockboy

    Dockboy Guest
    Messages: 0

    Chuck,

    No Problem on the pics!:D

    This has been my year of abuse to the Western V. I have hit more water main and manhole covers than I care to think about:eek: Some I've hit so hard, I fully expected to get out to see cutting edges gone and wings folded back. Surprisingly, the only damage to the plow itself, has been a slightly bent trip edge(what the cutting edge bolts to). You can see the cutting edge in this THREAD . Yesterday I yet it so hard, it actually jarred the radio loose in my dash!:(

    I've also spent a lot more time stacking this year too. I plow a Distribution center that's like plowing an airport! Usually we have a loader or backhoe there to deal with the windrows. Yesterday, he didn't get there until late, so I handled one side of the warehouse my self. It was heavy and wet too. You can see about 1/2 of the snow I stacked in this THREAD .

    I wonder if the extra 6" on each wing just adds too much stress? Do the rams bolt to the moldboard the same distance away from the hinge on a 9'6" as the do on a 8'6"??

    Greg
     
  7. John DiMartino

    John DiMartino PlowSite.com Veteran
    Messages: 2,154

    Chuck that is not good.I just plowed my second storm with my (new to me)used 8.5 Western MVP. I can tell you this plow is defintely much lighter duty than the Boss V is,especially in the center pin area,and the a frame. I have about 12 hrs on the Western now,and I just put a U edge on it for this last storm.Dockboy,you need to get a U edge,bad. I dont know why but this u edge is just incredible,it scrapes much,much better than the steel edge that was on it.On my boss and western staight blades,the U edge scrapes as good as steel 90% of the time,but on occasion it rides up on packed snow,where a steel edge may scrape it.This edge on the MVP is incredible.it exceeded my expectaions,and its so much easier on the truck. fter runing the Boss,and Western V back to back,there are quite a few things different about them.The western's angle cylinders are set at much higher pressure blowoffs,and it holds steady like a straight blade when pushing hard,the Boss plow will just blow back the wings,which is part of the trip feature they use.The western may develope cracks due to the higher stresses placed o nthe wings,just a thought.
     
  8. Chuck Smith

    Chuck Smith 2000 Club Member
    from NJ
    Messages: 2,317

    John, that is exactly what I was thinking. I was scooping and running the snow across the lot and into piles made by a Pro Tech, and I was actually piling the snow even higher and pushing back the piles (without trying). I was wondering just how hard of a hit it takes to fold back a wing, considering the Western uses double acting cylinders. In 10 hours I never folded back a wing. This was light fluffy snow. I know the last storm we had about a month ago was 6"+ heavy and wet. My bet is that is when this plow cracked.

    ~Chuck
     
  9. Dockboy

    Dockboy Guest
    Messages: 0

    John,

    I wish I could have got someone to take some pics while I was running yesterday, you would have loved it;)

    I was windrowing 4' high windrows of heavy, wet stuff back and had to put the power down to do it! The smoke was flyin!:cool: Looked like I was at a sled pull:D

    With about 200 hrs. on my Western, I have NEVER had an angle cylinder pressure relieve!

    Greg
     
  10. Jerre Heyer

    Jerre Heyer Senior Member
    Messages: 948

    Chuck, Spent the summer rebuilding v's and fisher straight blades. Sorry to hear your running into the same problems there.

    The wing that won't come all the way back sounds like it busted the end off the ram. There is a piston on the bottom with a pair of seals for the double action. It's held on by a nut. These can bust off or the bottom of the ram tube can bend stopping the full travel.

    If it's collapsing all the way and still misses the stop check your mounting ears and pins for bending.

    If you have creases the wing is now tweaked from corner to corner. We have added another piece to the end rib to strengthen it and help with furter twist. The cracked ribs are full seam welded and we add gussets horizontally to add strength across the wing.

    Also check the center bushings for cracking down both inside and outside.

    Book setting for pressure relief is 3000 primary and 3500psi secondary. You can easily adjust this down but the real problem we have seen is welding and stiffening quality. This is on the 8.6 and the 9.6 Western and Fisher's. IMO the Western A frame was much better than the Fisher in the beginning. I was very dissapointed with the new Ultramount framework. Hope they hold up........Then again job security is great too.

    Just did a 9.6 unimount that tore and bent the angle Iron that holds the light tower pivot to the plow frame off. Thin angle like the standard plow for one that weights in over 1000#. Replaced it with 3/8" matl.

    Sorry I didn't take picts of the earlier work just got a digital camera late this fall. Forgot to take picts of the 9.6 cause the snow was falling and the work was piling up.

    Good luck on the repairs. Jerre
     
  11. Foz

    Foz Senior Member
    Messages: 119

    Sorry to hear about the Western, i am in process of switching back to Western after trying 2 Boss vee plows. So far much happier with the Western Vee. Have always run Western straight blades & just tried Boss this season. Same troubles though, creases & cracked welds on Boss......swap u even up 2 Boss for 1 Western though:D
     
  12. mike9497

    mike9497 Senior Member
    Messages: 466

    chuck

    same thing happened to me last night.well i think i was using it to hard.pushing piles that were coming over the top of the plow.you should see the piles i was stacking.the nose of the truck was going into the piles.broke my new bug gard....lol.now i run a f350 with a dump.my friend has a boss that did the same thing after two storms.i have 4 storms on my western V.i had my brother weld it back up until i get a new peice.my brother said it looked like it wasn't preped right at the factory. said the welder wasn't at the correct heat range which would make the joint weak my brother is a welder in the design shop at moroso.so i think he knows what hes talking about.it does suck when your backing western all the time......like me lol.but im a commercial plower so these things will happen.even if its new or 20 years old.
     
    Last edited: Feb 8, 2003
  13. hyperpack

    hyperpack Senior Member
    Messages: 108

    Big Leverage

    My First plow was a 7' 6" straight blade Western converted to a V, The cylinders were mounted to the wing less than a foot from the the hinge pin, Which makes the wing (lever) powerful enough to bend easily at the fulcrum(cylinder mounting point). My plow cracked and wrinkled like the newer ones. As a temporary fix I welded the cutting edge to the wing at the hinge end, Which strengthened the wings considerably. After seing how the Boss plow cylinders were mounted it was easy to see how much stress it removed from the wings by moving the fulcrum farther out toward the end of the wing, It does however put the stress onto the A frame, But it is much easier to beef up that to handle the extra load. I did this to my plow using the same cylinders with excellent results, I never had a problem with cracked welds for several years after changing the cylinder mounting.
    Hyperpack
     
  14. John DiMartino

    John DiMartino PlowSite.com Veteran
    Messages: 2,154

    Greg,smoke is good! I noticed that my western wll take a hit and the truck will slam to a stop,but the wings wont fold.This puts incredible stress on the wings.I may adjust the wings down slightly,so there is some give.I was pushing into an existing pile yesterday, at an angle,.well i hit the frozen part,and that was when i noticed it didnt blow back at all.Even my straight blade would have blown back. Foz,what has happened to your Boss V's,how old are they? Id gladly trade my western V for another Boss......the western is nice,but its just so slow,and that controller has got to go, that is my biggest complaint.My western drags the wings real easy as compared to the Boss,and I notice my Boss stacks at least 1 ft higher than the western too,not a big deal,but its clear in the parking lot which side was done with which. Boss is just more productive for me.full trip is a non issure since I run the U edge anyway,tripping isnt necesary 95% of the time.The western V with a U edge is the best scraping plow ive ever owned,you practically dont need salt with this plow,its scrapes clean,one pass,right to pavement as if it had 1000 lbs of downpressure-amazing.I dont see anything at all wrong with my wings yet on either of my V plows.My Boss has gotten used hard a few times,so far no damage at all.i am like the only guy locally with V plows,everyone asks me why i have them.Locals seem to think they are a waste of money-thats better for me,Ill keep my waste of money V plow,saving 20 minutes average each site,what fools....
     
    Last edited: Feb 9, 2003
  15. DYNA PLOW

    DYNA PLOW Senior Member
    Messages: 295

    my western v got used hard last week so today when the snow melts off the plow and truck from sittin in the shop i am going to go over it to see if i can find any signs of cracks or creases like chuck has posted. i plow alot with a friend that uses a boss v plow and as john D. said the western is alot slower moving the wings. i attribute this to the double acting cyl. on the western as the boss uses springs to pull the wings back.
    Dockboy, i agree with john D. you really need to consider a u edge. i have one on mine and when plowin a few lots that my friend has with manholes and uneven surfaces i watch his boss plow and for that matter can hear it too! going bang bang slam as it trips over the fill points at a gas station we both plow. then he gets out and looks at the cutting edge to make shur its still on.
    now when we plow that place i notice he's always in another part of the lot when it comes to plowin that part with the fill points cause the uedge glides right over it , i don't even slow down.
    dan
     
  16. Dockboy

    Dockboy Guest
    Messages: 0

    Don't worry. I've left 2 emails and 2 phone messages for Dino!:D

    Greg
     
  17. DYNA PLOW

    DYNA PLOW Senior Member
    Messages: 295

    just hate to see you tear up that nice turbo diesel.
    dan
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Feb 9, 2003
  18. plowking35

    plowking35 2000 Club Member
    from SE CT
    Messages: 2,923

    I dont know what to say, I hit a curb so hard on friday that I blew a hydro hose, yet the plow never bent or cracked. I guess it just depends on hwta day it was welded. For wht it is worth the fisher western v plows are both made in maine, so the same people weld them using the same templates.
    Dino
     
  19. Jerre Heyer

    Jerre Heyer Senior Member
    Messages: 948

    Chuck, Nice pict you posted. Where do I get a hat like that?

    Thought you'd enjoy this pict of a V we had in today. Jerre

    p.s. yes it's been used hard for 3 yrs.

    dsc00462.jpg
     
  20. Chuck Smith

    Chuck Smith 2000 Club Member
    from NJ
    Messages: 2,317