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Western stuck up and won't turn

Discussion in 'Western Plows Discussion' started by musicars, Dec 21, 2010.

  1. musicars

    musicars Junior Member
    Messages: 20

    I've got an older Western with the Isarmatic Mark III and an electronic controller. Tonight the lift ram went all the way up and stayed there. Then when I tried to straighten the blade to the right it kept going left. Now it is stuck at the top and all the way to the left.

    First, what's the safest way to get this down? I was going put a jack under the blade then pull the plug at the bottom of the ram bore to drain the fluid. I don't mind the mess of the fluid, I just don't want it coming out at 100 mph.

    Secondly, Should I be looking at a stuck cartridge valve? And if so, which one? Or could this be wiring to the solenoids? The pump motor is running when I hit the controls but nothing happens.

    Thanks for any input.
     
  2. RepoMan207

    RepoMan207 PlowSite Fanatic
    from Maine
    Messages: 5,031

    well....if it won't lower and it won't go left, then your looking at 2 bad valves. Not likely to happen together, so it's probably a connection issue.

    Check your connections at the grill, make sure they're clean and and there is no obstructions, bent, corroded or missing pins. Check the wires just behind the connector as well.

    Then open up the cover on the side of the pump housing where the valves are, make sure all the jumper wires are tight.

    Check your controller, does it have a good connection where it connects to the control harness?

    Check the connection at the ISO as well,

    Now check for magnetic pull on the S3 and S1 Valves while someone operates the plow from the cab. S3 controls the left function in conjunction with S2...but it obviously works, so stay with the S3, S1 would be lowering.
     
  3. RepoMan207

    RepoMan207 PlowSite Fanatic
    from Maine
    Messages: 5,031

    If you absolutely need to get the plow down, supply power to the S1 cartridge and it will drop, watch your feet!!!!
     
  4. musicars

    musicars Junior Member
    Messages: 20

    Thanks for help!

    Is S1 closest to the ram? I have a parts diagram but it does not list the cartridges or solenoids that way.

    I want to get it down first because I don't want it coming down when I'm not expecting it. I want to keep as many toes as possible!

    Thanks again!
     
  5. RepoMan207

    RepoMan207 PlowSite Fanatic
    from Maine
    Messages: 5,031

  6. musicars

    musicars Junior Member
    Messages: 20

    Thanks for the diagram. There is juice going to the solenoids but nothing happening. Since I'm not quite sure how this works I didn't know if I should see movement or if the valve action is all internal. Is there a way to test the solenoids?

    It would seem difficult to have more then one solenoid go bad at the same time but I am having a power drain issue when I engage the pump. I suppose it is possible this could effect the solenoids.

    If the solenoids are good I assume the next step is to pull the cartridges. I wouldn't think more then one could go bad at the same time unless debris got in.
     
  7. musicars

    musicars Junior Member
    Messages: 20

    I pulled the S1 and S2 cartridges which allowed me to lower the blade when the fluid drained out. I'm going to bench test the coil and cartridge assemblies tonight. The inner plunger in the cartridges moves freely about 1/8" to 3/16" when pushed by hand. Is that enough? I didn't see any anything that could be preventing them from moving freely

    Is there anything else that could have prevented fluid flow, like a check valve? What I could find in the online manuals implied that the poppet valve could cause one problem but not both left/right and dropping.

    Thanks.
     
  8. twinman326

    twinman326 PlowSite.com Addict
    Messages: 1,683

    You had the right fluid level inside the pump housing?

    The S1 might not be spooling
    pic's
    lower.jpg

    inletvalve.jpg

    lower.jpg

    inletvalve.jpg
     
  9. RepoMan207

    RepoMan207 PlowSite Fanatic
    from Maine
    Messages: 5,031

    I would pull all three, but as you and I have already stated, I don't think this is a valve issue, unless it's a blockage issue. Exam the bores thoroughly. Bench testing wouldn't hurt, in fact it would help eliminate as you already have them out.

    You definitely checked for magnetic pull, an they're all getting power correct? If not, once you get it back together, check for magnetic pull first.

    This could also be a controller issue, but seeing how your at the pump, you might as well finish up thoroughly to eliminate any possibilities. Take into considerations a worn valve can can also cause issues, look for the following signs.......



    [​IMG]









    If you get it all buttoned back up with no results, I'll post up the control tests...if you don't already have them.
     
  10. musicars

    musicars Junior Member
    Messages: 20

    twinman - I had checked fluid the previous time out. However, I did notice excessive leakage at the lift ram packing. So, it is possible I was low. Could pumping all the fluid in to the lift ram, if I was low, cause everything to lock up?
    Also, thanks for the diagram. I didn't realize how the fluid flow can pass through multiple cartridges. Now I get the importance of not just focusing one. These things all interact.

    RepoMan - My S1cartridge is visually swollen (.010 inches). It's enough to make it harder to get the coil off. I suppose that should be replaced, although I still think something else is the culprit.
    Also, I didn't actually check the coil yet to see if it was magnetizing. I only checked to see if it was getting juice when I triggered the controller. I'll check the coils when I bench test them.

    Thanks again. I'll report on on any results.
     
  11. RepoMan207

    RepoMan207 PlowSite Fanatic
    from Maine
    Messages: 5,031

    That's all it takes, This is your issue. It needs to be replaced.
     
  12. twinman326

    twinman326 PlowSite.com Addict
    Messages: 1,683

    Change the packing in the lift arm...

    Repo, here is your snicker back............
     
  13. musicars

    musicars Junior Member
    Messages: 20

    Thanks for all the help. I figured it out. Once I saw that diagram of the hydraulic system and realized how all three valves interacted I took a step back and tried to figure out what conditions could cause these problems. I then came across a Mechanics Guide on another thread. After staring for an hour, blowing out a few brain cells, at the flow charts of the hydraulics I figured one of the two following conditions existed:

    1) The S1 and S2 where actuating at the same time (electrical problem).

    or

    2) S3 was stuck in the shifted (I think that's the term) position which would allow the ram to raise but would not allow the fluid to drain back into the reservoir when attempting to lower. Instead the fluid would try to come back to the pump and be blocked by the pump check valve. That would also cause fluid to be pumped into the right angle ram and not allow it into the left.

    I tested the electrics and everything worked fine. I then loosened the S3, to allow fluid to seep out, and triggered S1. When the lift ram dropped I knew I was on the right track. I pulled S3 out and discovered that the inside plunger was not coming out all the way. I tapped on the side of it with a plastic mallet and it loosened up. I then wrapped a rag around it and sprayed cleaner in to the end of the valve dislodging two very small flat pieces of metal that looked like casting flash. After cleaning the cartridge it seemed to work fine so I dried, it lubed it up, and put it back in. Everything works fine now.

    I'm hoping the metal flakes aren't the sign of a bigger problem but I guess time will tell.

    Also, with regard to the suggestion of replacing the lift ram packing because of the leak; I did that at the beginning of last season along with replacing the original pitted plunger with a better one. I've had problems ever since. Maybe I put the packing in wrong. I'll need to find a diagram or picture to verify. If I can't find info on this site I'll start a new thread on that issue.

    Thanks again for all the help. I was pretty frustrated.
     
    Last edited: Dec 26, 2010
  14. twinman326

    twinman326 PlowSite.com Addict
    Messages: 1,683

    It must be your birthday

    mark3hydr.jpg

    Also you might want to make sure the packing nut it tight

    mark3hydr.jpg
     
  15. musicars

    musicars Junior Member
    Messages: 20

    Thanks for the diagram. The nut is tight. I'm worried I might over-tightened and make the ram work too hard. I snugged it and then went a 1/4 turn but that was not enough. When I took the old packing out the parts were not in the same order as the replacement set from Western. The dealer told me to install the set in the order it was in the package. Then I wondered if I did something stupid like put it in upside down. So I may have to get a picture of an actual set in the right order. My local plow dealership no longer handles Western. That's been moved to the car dealership parts department up the street. I don't think they have the actual experience the other place has. The original place would have been able to show me which way to install and verify the order. I don't mind a little leakage for now, I'm just glad it is working. Can't thank you folks enough for the help!
     
  16. twinman326

    twinman326 PlowSite.com Addict
    Messages: 1,683