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Trying to figure snow bank size for a lot after pushing a foot

Discussion in 'Commercial Snow Removal' started by Four Seasons, Nov 14, 2010.

  1. Four Seasons

    Four Seasons Senior Member
    Messages: 156

    I have no experience with commercial lots. Im trying figure the size of snow bank when a foot of snow is pushed straight for 400 feet. The snow will need to be hauled off when the bank is 4 ft tall and 8 or 10 ft deep so Im wondering if I will have to haul after just 4-6 inches or if I have more room than Im thinking to store snow.
  2. In2toys

    In2toys Senior Member
    Messages: 319

    If you know the lot dimensions, just figure the cu. yards. L X W X H in Feet & divide by 27
  3. Four Seasons

    Four Seasons Senior Member
    Messages: 156

    whats 27??? but doing it out mathmatically I think adds up to way more volume than what the real world situation does. Compaction and other factors?
    Last edited: Nov 14, 2010
  4. mrsnowman

    mrsnowman Senior Member
    Messages: 126

    That depends on how deep the snow bank is or can be pushed back.
  5. Four Seasons

    Four Seasons Senior Member
    Messages: 156

    thats all in there
  6. In2toys

    In2toys Senior Member
    Messages: 319

    that'll give you how many cubic yards of snow or mulch, or whatever. For example, a box 3' X 3' X 3' = 27 cu. ftt. divide by 27 & that will give you how many cubic yards. 1. at least that's how I figure it. Agreed on the compaction issue. there's really no way to figure what you are looking for because of that. how dry or wet the snow is are other factors. Cubic yards would be worst cast scenario due to compaction.
    Last edited: Nov 14, 2010
  7. Four Seasons

    Four Seasons Senior Member
    Messages: 156

    right. I really need to figure a general idea though. Because with a foot of snowfall, plowing 400 feet into a 10 ft row, my snow bank is somewhere between 4 and 40 feet tall. I have no idea.
  8. newhere

    newhere PlowSite.com Addict
    from Fenton
    Messages: 1,288

    At a 6" snowfall plowing a 10' wide pass you will have a 75yard pile of snow to pile. That's going to make a huge pile, far bigger than 4'x10'x10' To some it up nice and easy, plan on hauling snow every time you push over 2".
  9. mrsnowman

    mrsnowman Senior Member
    Messages: 126

    Opps sorry, I lost my train of thought and hit send. Along with the dimensions, the type of snow will make a huge difference and the temps also. Not much room to compress synoptic snows, but the lake effect can be compressed quite a bit. Either way, are they paying hourly for hauling? If so, why are you worried about it?
  10. Four Seasons

    Four Seasons Senior Member
    Messages: 156

    In reponse to "new here"

    Thats what Im saying. That is mathmatically. Think about that logically. You can push 6" of snow a long way, yes you'll have a pile but think about 75 yards! You couldnt push that with a dozer.
  11. newhere

    newhere PlowSite.com Addict
    from Fenton
    Messages: 1,288

    Its not going to compress that much, figure 30% on the high side..... 400' is a long pass, no way will any machine or truck make a full width pass.
  12. Four Seasons

    Four Seasons Senior Member
    Messages: 156

    no its one bid

    tree work
    hedge trimming
  13. leon

    leon Senior Member
    Messages: 872

    snow etc.

    For every foot of box blade width you will have 15 yards of snow to deal with for the 400 foot length to be plowed.

    15 cubic yards is 405 cubic feet times the width per foot of the blade if you are gathering rather than pushing. so if you are using an 8 foot box blade thats 3,240 cubic feet or 120 cubic yards

    A one foot layer of snow that has not experienced snow melt is 10 to 21 pounds per cubic foot depending on the specific geographic location and moisture content.

    A foot of compacted snow may wiegh 30 pounds or more per cubic foot and if it has experienced snow melt and freeze thaw cycles it may wiegh 3 times as much as it is wieghed down by itself to the point it can no longer be compacted as it is a solid(until it experiences a freeze thaw cycle).
  14. elite1msmith

    elite1msmith 2000 Club Member
    from chicago
    Messages: 2,762

    At best you have a 50 percent compaction rate . So 400 foot run x how wide? This is assuming that you really are going to plow and bring all the snow up to the pile site. Post a map, and some more info and I could help you.

    Just for the sake of example. 400 feet run x 10 wide x 1 foot deep. = 4000 cubic feet, uncompacted, 2000 compacted. If your allowed to pile it 4 feet high, 10 feet wide, then your pile would stick out 50 feet. For 1 foot of snow..plowed. However to haul that amount away you need to use non compacted numbers... So 4000/27. 148 yards...you figure out how many trucks you need
  15. Four Seasons

    Four Seasons Senior Member
    Messages: 156

    I went and measured so Im not guessing. Its 300 ft wide not 400. So its 450 feet by 300 feet. Thats 3 acres so with the math figures here thats one thousand tri-axle loads of snow for the year. Figuring a somewhat steady year for snow at 5 feet total:dizzy: That can not be right!
    Last edited: Nov 14, 2010
  16. leon

    leon Senior Member
    Messages: 872

    snow etc.

    One foot of snow depth will become-

    5,000 cubic yards of snow (*at 15 Lbs est.) per cubic foot is a bit over one thousand tons.

    One thousand tons divided by 22 tons is 45 loads -which is meaningless as the snow will melt from
    freeze-thaw cycles and become heavier.

    Five feet of total accumulation in total is twenty five thousand yards which will become 220 loads est.

    The end volume is meaningless until all snow is removed for the season.

    The melting would be easy enough to do with 3-6 sections of 20 foot long 24 inch corrugated culvert pipe and

    six 100,000-BTU kerosene salamaders with one at each end of the culvert pipe or use all six with the six pipes

    and an end cap fitted to the pipe. The heat will be concentrated within the pipe and will radiate to the snow pile.

    You be bleeding money by hauling it away and have to many planing problems coordinating haulage

    to find a dump site when you can melt it there.

    You will use much less kerosene feeding the salamanders to melt the snow than you will dealing with trucking and the hourly

    cost for trucking the snow away.

    At that rate you would be better off not salting and pushing/ plowing it near a storm drain and

    melting the piles with a herd of salamanders that are heating corrugated culvert pipe sections draining to

    the storm drain. As long as you have no salt in the snow there will be no issues.

    The salamanders can run unattended when heating the culvert pipe to melt the snow you are moving.
    Last edited: Nov 14, 2010
  17. Four Seasons

    Four Seasons Senior Member
    Messages: 156

    A tri can pretty much fill up with snow right. So lets figure it out by yards rather than tons. Because in order to bid Id like to know my number of loads or yards going out.

    So what I need to figure out is how Im ending up at 1000 loads and your at 200. Can you show the math for me?
  18. leon

    leon Senior Member
    Messages: 872


    300 feet by 450 feet by 5 feet in total

    135,000 cubic feet per foot

    X 5 foot depth
    675,000 cubic feet

    675,000 cubuc feet
    X 15 pounds per cubic foot estimate
    10,125,000 pounds est.

    10,125,000 pounds
    / 2,000 pounds per U.S.T
    5,063 tons

    5,063 tons
    / 22 tons per truck load est. which is meaningless
    230 22 ton loads est.as the snow is not fully compacted

    The lot size being 300 by 450 and the five foot depth of snow in the estimate means little in
    the scheme of things only because the snow is not uniform in volume when removed and transported

    300 by 450 feet is 135,000 square feet.

    300 by 450 by 5 feet is 675,000 cubid feet diveded by 27 cubic feet which is the standard measure ofr one cubic yards in United States measurment

    675,000 /27 = 25,000 yards divided by (22 yards in truck body volume only) 1,137 truck loads
    Your money and aggravation ahead by melting it in a storm drain if they have one on the lot with culvert pipe as
    a heat exchanger and salamanders for heat source and using sand.

    If you end up paying 64 dollars and hour for trucking for each load its going to ruin you

    Assuming 1,200 loads and an hour out and back is 1 hour per load is 128 dollars assuming you can find a site 30 minutes away

    X $64


    Plus tax and disposal permits

    The six culverts and 6 salamanders looks better all the time and avoiding salt and using stock piled sand will save you money

    6 salamanders@ $400.00 $2,400.00
    6 24-inch culvert sections $2,400.00
    one large generator rental $3,000.00
    or purchase

    1,000 gallons
    kerosene for season est. $4000.00
    $12,800.00 estimate

    Not including plowing charges:
    Not including gasoline for generator useage to power salamanders @ one gallon per hour.
    What looks better to you or your customer if they have a storm drain and salt use is avoided in the parking area by using sand heavily?

    Dont forget the area under the culvert pipe will become a huge heat sink and aid in melting quickly as the ground temperature

    at 4 feet in depth is 52 degrees fahrenheit on average,
    Last edited: Nov 14, 2010
  19. Four Seasons

    Four Seasons Senior Member
    Messages: 156

    heres my math

    Length x width x height

    450 x 300 x 5 ft total snowfall = 675,000 cu. ft. divided by 27 to get yards

    25,000 yards all year

    20 yards per tri axle load, so 25,000 divided by 20 =1250

    thats 1250 loads with zero melting, compaction or anything figured in. I might subtract a third for that which still leaves me with a rediculous number of loads for a relatively small property at 3 acres. So where am I going wrong?
  20. Four Seasons

    Four Seasons Senior Member
    Messages: 156

    I know whats happening. Your weight figures are allowing you to carry 107 cubic yards per load but you can only fit 20. So that means your at on fifth of where you need to be so multiply your 230 loads by 5 and you get my 1200