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Symbiot owes 5 million to contractors !

Discussion in 'Commercial Snow Removal' started by Lawn Tek, Aug 18, 2006.

  1. Lawn Tek

    Lawn Tek Member
    from Ky
    Messages: 46

    According to Snow Business Magazine , July 2006 issue , pg.8 . Symbiot owes contractors 5 million dollars !
     
  2. nekos

    nekos Senior Member
    Messages: 586

    i only have 1 question...
    how the hell can this company stay in business ?
     
  3. SnoFarmer

    SnoFarmer PlowSite Fanatic
    from N,E. MN
    Messages: 8,614

    lol.. It looks like they stay in business buy not paying their contractors.

    If you can keep 5 mill in the bank and collect the interest, there making even more money by not paying out..
     
  4. nekos

    nekos Senior Member
    Messages: 586

    lol no i mean , why hasn't some one sued them yet ?

    how the hell can they keep getting away with this ?

    if you have a contract ... you go to court . if they are in breach of contract they can be forced to pay .
    im not a lawyer or anything but bank's can take your house ,cars and any other assests you have ... why can't this be done with them ?
     
    Last edited: Aug 19, 2006
  5. procut1

    procut1 Senior Member
    Messages: 380

    Thats the part I cant figure out. I hear some contractors are owed tens of thousands of dollars and many say that they worked all year and never got paid.

    I dont get it. If a contract dosent pay us we STOP SERVICE. Usually works best if you do it within a few hours of a large storm approaching. Usually get your money pretty quick when youre on the property 12 hours before a storm removing your equipment.

    How some people went an entire year servicing without a dime I cant figure out. But I dont know all sides of the story so I cant speak for them.

    The other question is why there dosent seem to be lawsuits going on. Just seems like a lot of people crying on the internet. Where are the lawyers?
     
  6. procut1

    procut1 Senior Member
    Messages: 380

    My guess is that there are so many guys that are drooling over the chance to go "big time" and leave residentials to plow their local Home Depot or something that they just sign any contract thats sent to them because theyre so excited.

    I read a couple of contracts that have been sent to me by these area management companies and they all have about the same points.

    1. They dont have to pay you if they dont get paid.
    Yeah right, Im not signing a contract with home depot, im signing with you, your collections are your problem not mine.

    2. They have a whole page of what they can deduct for. Way too many loopholes

    3. Late invoicing them or they lost invoice? They dont have to pay

    4. Store manager complains? They dont have to pay

    5. They also say in the event that they dont pay on time YOU CANNOT STOP SERVICE. This one i find hilarious. You dont have to pay but i still have to service. Nice try

    6. You cannot contact the property owner for ANY REASON. or the definately wont pay. So basically you cant complain to HD that youre not getting paid.

    7. Waiver of leins. So if you do plow for the year, and dont get paid you cant lein the property, Well thats our biggest threat as plowers and we're gonna sign that right away?

    8. Waiver of litigation. Basically saying if they dont pay you cant sue.

    There are others but I have found every national mgmt contract to read about the same,

    Basically when you sign one, you promise,

    To plow ontime every storm
    to plow if they dont pay
    to not try to collect your money
    and to not sue them in the end.

    Ive seen so many of these contracts and laughed my ass off that people actually sign them but there are so many new guys every year dying to be big shots and get their "commercial accounts" that they just sign anything and come crying when they're in debt and cant pay their own vendors and the national companies are handing out bonuses and laughing,
     
  7. Lawn Tek

    Lawn Tek Member
    from Ky
    Messages: 46

    The way they do it is simple . They create several mini divisions of thier so called company.. They get contracts to do the work . They sub the work out . They get paid , and don't pay thier subcontractors . Then they disolve the mini company , and simply continue on like they are a wonderful asset to the property management indusrty . They then create a "new division or company name " so the world can "benefit " from thier stellar management skills .
    And they get away with it .
     
  8. murray83

    murray83 Senior Member
    Messages: 420

    this screams class action lawsuit and fraud.

    reading procut1's post i'm speachless,to think anyone would plow for these goofs is a joke are these guys just covering the american stores of home depot and office depot? or both canada and the states?
     
  9. Mick

    Mick PlowSite.com Veteran
    from Maine
    Messages: 5,546

    But there has to be someone or some entity to sue and there has to be some way to collect if you win. The way it's set up, there are no tangible assets. When the
    "corporation" dissolves, there is nothing/no one to sue, anyway. If a new company buys the existing contracts, they can be generous and offer to settle debts for a fraction of the face value. Or work for someone you know and trust.

    The only way to do it, is to get money upfront and work off that. But good luck with that. There'll always be someone "hungry" enough or naive enough to work their way.
     
  10. nekos

    nekos Senior Member
    Messages: 586

    that's crazy...
    that is fraud , people go to jail for less then that.

    has any one contacted state offices and IRS ? even the police can be called ... this isn't just a typical theft of service !
     
  11. murray83

    murray83 Senior Member
    Messages: 420

    so basically your saying if i plow say...a wal-mart for example i could have my truck and equipment under a numbered company and use say "murray's plowing" on my contract,if i'm sued by chance i dissolve the murray's plowing and start new with a different name and my equipment can't be touched?
     
  12. Mick

    Mick PlowSite.com Veteran
    from Maine
    Messages: 5,546

    At what point is it fraud? You'd have to prove an intention not to pay for services rendered.

    Call the police? And tell them what? Call the IRS? Again, tell them what? These companies are paying taxes. Just not the subcontractors. Not an issue for the IRS.

    Murray83 - it depends on the consumer laws in your state (oops, country), but generally this is the difference between a Corporation, LLC and Sole Proprietor. In the example you gave, this is a Sole Proprietorship or possibly an LLC. In that instance, even LLC might not protect you. But the point is, your truck and equipment are business assets which can be attached in case of a court award. You personally can be also held responsible in the case of a Sole Propreitorship and possibly an LLC if the court "peirces the veil" by showing an attempt to evade responsibility. Even with an LLC, the owned (not rented or leased) business equipment are assets.
     
    Last edited: Aug 19, 2006
  13. Lawn Tek

    Lawn Tek Member
    from Ky
    Messages: 46

    When all you have is a ghost company , a rented office , a few staplers , copy machine , a few computers , they will have nothing to get , no assets .
    I still have Bruce Wilsons letter welcoming me as a "Symbiot Partner " in my office . The letter informs me on how great the relationship will be .
    Less than a year later they would not pay us for plowing we did .And they sent us a letter from thier attorney saying they were disolving the company .
     
  14. murray83

    murray83 Senior Member
    Messages: 420

    none the less what goes around comes around and in due time these people will get theirs

    thanks mick on clearing that up.
     
    Last edited: Aug 19, 2006
  15. murray83

    murray83 Senior Member
    Messages: 420

    also it makes you wonder if trying to land the larger commercial jobs are worth it?

    i read many posts on here and see both good and bad views on the management firms such as mick posted awhile ago by doing work with them you can get discounts or as many post on here not get paid by them....

    added insurance,finding subs,added paper work and making shure you crossed all your t's and dotted all your i's in your invoices....seems just so easy to stay doing driveways
     
  16. nekos

    nekos Senior Member
    Messages: 586

    if you believe you were intentionally coned or scammed .... that is a criminal matter and police will respond to it.
    i know that very well. my uncle is a con man that spends most his time in jail stuff like this , only on a much smaller scale.

    IRS, they are not paying the correct taxes most likely.
    do you really think a company like this will tell the IRS that they didn't pay you and kept the money ? they would be in a world of **** if they got audited.
     
  17. Mick

    Mick PlowSite.com Veteran
    from Maine
    Messages: 5,546

    Possibly, but I doubt it. They will claim what they are paid. Then they will claim what they paid to contractors. Showing payments that they did not make is the only thing in this instance that the IRS would interested in. The management companies would not take the chance of making false claims of payment. They will concentrate on other deductions, such as lease payments, to reduce the tax liability (see - leasing has all kinds of advantages).

    The IRS has no interest in whether employees/contractors were paid properly or not.

    Remember - even crooks often pay taxes on illegal gains. It's easier for the IRS to prove you didn't pay taxes on income, than it is for a law enforcement agency to prove you committed a crime in the first place.
     
  18. AintNoFun

    AintNoFun Senior Member
    Messages: 175

    i have heard that you can 10-99 becuase they haven't paid you, so technically it is income for them?



     
  19. Mick

    Mick PlowSite.com Veteran
    from Maine
    Messages: 5,546

    No. They are already claiming the money they were paid by the store. Not paying the subcontractor is not income as they did not receive any additional money. I realize that's a triple negative but that was the best way I could get the point across.

    I don't see how you could send them a 10-99 as you did not pay them any wages.
     
  20. procut1

    procut1 Senior Member
    Messages: 380

    You actually can because you donated services to them.