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Sub rates for 08-09

Discussion in 'Networking' started by BigDave12768, May 2, 2008.

  1. BigDave12768

    BigDave12768 PlowSite.com Addict
    Messages: 1,446

    with unleaded quickly approaching $4 gallon and Diesel should be over $5 gallon next season. Any thoughts on sub rates this years rate was 60-65hr I would think next season $80hr with fuel costs. most subs justs do it as part time gig and wont hold onto truck with raising fuel costs. other thoughts are will business cut back on snow plowing till they are pretty much buried.
  2. SnoFarmer

    SnoFarmer PlowSite Fanatic
    from N,E. MN
    Messages: 7,921

    A "SUB-contractor is a "contractor" who works for a contractor
    not an employee who uses his own tools or equipment.

    The contractor who holds the contract is called the "General Contractor" If they hire a contractor this contractor just became a "Sub-Contractor". The people who wort for the contractors are called "Employees";)

    I'm a contractor and I can not turn a profit at $60 to 65 and hr.
    It will be more like $145 to $175 an hr. Maybe more by fall we'll see.

    I think your an employee at those rates.
    (Their is nothing wrong with being an employee)
    Read what the IRS has to say about this, take a look around their site.

    JD PLOWER PlowSite.com Veteran
    Messages: 751

    Snofarmer he's actually correct in his use of the term sub contractor for this area. The state of Massachusetts hires out subs (about 2500-3000 per storm) with prices ranging from 65-135 per hour depending on what equipment they are "subbing". And yes I suspect sub rates will go up but I also expect it won't keep up as much as it should. I plan on hiring less subs next year but mostly due to probably having less work. I suspect it will still take several years for these prices to trickle their way through the system. Still too many guys doing this type of work here to weed out the stupid ones anytime soon.
    Last edited: May 2, 2008
  4. SnoFarmer

    SnoFarmer PlowSite Fanatic
    from N,E. MN
    Messages: 7,921

    The IRS trumps any state.
    Their definition goes for every state in the union;)
    Can you post something to back that up JDplower?

    If he means a substitute plower then they are still an employee.

    JD PLOWER PlowSite.com Veteran
    Messages: 751

    Lets just say this, the state of Mass has to my knowledge never been sued successfully when it comes employee benefits regarding snow removal. If it had then it would essentially cripple the state's snow removal plan. Also the state has been hiring subs since I think the early seventies (maybe earlier) and thats an awful long time to be "lucky" when it comes to not having to pay benefits to injured workers or the other associated costs with hiring employee’s. This subject has been discussed many times before (here and on other sites) and people will believe what they want and that’s fine by me since I don’t work for the state, I just know people who do. As far I’m concerned,this horse is dead and I’m not going to exhume the body anytime soon.
  6. Niteman9

    Niteman9 Senior Member
    Messages: 165

    I have seen you say over over. Well I sub for a lawn care company who sends me a 1099. When I did my taxes turbo tax told me I had business and need to file on my taxes this way.
  7. SnoFarmer

    SnoFarmer PlowSite Fanatic
    from N,E. MN
    Messages: 7,921

    A. Have you read the IRS'S site?

    So we are on the same page, when we use the word "SUB" that we are referring to a "contractor" by the definitions put forth by the IRS?

    Your state is the "General Contractor", you the citizen are the client.
    Then any contractor the state hires is a "sub-contractor" and not an employee.

    That's all fine and dandy but you and I know you can't make $ plowing for $60-65 an hr.as a contractor.
    Not using your own truck, paying ins, paying for SS, comp.etc etc.

    That's great, good for you.
    I'll ask you too did you read the IRS's site?
    Do you meat all the criteria or did you fall short?
    Just because they send you a 1099 & quick books says so does not mean you have not been misclassified.

    If you are then congrats your a contractor.
    Everyone on this site is a contractor too I guess.
    Not one employee?
    (not that their is anything wrong with that.)

    So what's your point?

    JD PLOWER PlowSite.com Veteran
    Messages: 751

    I guess I just don't care that much about the definition of the word "sub". As long as the one's I hire have the proper insurance and equipment, they can call themselves snow faries as far I'm concerned as long they do what is expected of them.
  9. SnoFarmer

    SnoFarmer PlowSite Fanatic
    from N,E. MN
    Messages: 7,921


    Employee or contractor.

    As an employer or a contractor who hires a sub-contractor or an employee you should be very concerned with this definition as it could come up in court some day as your being sued for or sueing for workmanscomp, S.S. or taxes.
    Have ever been audited by the IRS?
    I have.
    With your attitude, you woun't like it...

    Anyway, I'll sell me trucks and sleep in if I only made $60-65 an hr plowing snow.

    Your ins, truck and a W2 ,now we can talk...;)
  10. creativedesigns

    creativedesigns PlowSite.com Addict
    Messages: 1,929

    Snowfarmer playin "Mr.Know-it-all" again. :rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:
  11. iceyman

    iceyman 2000 Club Member
    Messages: 2,521

    i think its that time of the year:rolleyes:
  12. SnoFarmer

    SnoFarmer PlowSite Fanatic
    from N,E. MN
    Messages: 7,921

    I haven't seen snowfarmer respond to this thread yet. cre....

    I didn't see your horse in the race?
    Ho, wait, was it the dead one a few posts back?

    Naw, I'm not right the IRS IS...;)

    But hey, if your business can afford to bill out a truck with a plow and operator etc,etc,at $65 bucks an hr thats great.
    No matter how I do the numbers as a contractor I can't come close to making money at tat rate and I own everything.
  13. Midwest BuildIt Inc

    Midwest BuildIt Inc PlowSite.com Addict
    Messages: 1,280

    What the hell are you smoking Farmer. Are you being serious ? The guy asked about sub rates and you start grilling him about employee vs sub...Am i blind or did i miss something, I dont recall him mentioning this anywhere in his post....And $65 an hour is what subs get on average, some places more and some less but there are hundreds of thousands of them out there...
  14. Indy

    Indy Senior Member
    Messages: 704

    In Indiana they call it an "Independent Sub-Contractor" working under a "Contractor"and you are 1099'd and have no employee benifits or withholding
  15. SnoFarmer

    SnoFarmer PlowSite Fanatic
    from N,E. MN
    Messages: 7,921

    WTF...back at ya.
    Very serious.
    Naw, I'm not "grilling" him, am I quoiting him over and over?
    As far as the rate of $60-65 an hr goes, I have expressed my opinion as it being
    a bit to to low.;)

    As long as we are calling a sub the same thing?
    He is a contractor who is working for a contractor as def by the IRS..

    What floors me is that everyone on this site is a contractor and not one employee.

    A lot of them "subs" are really employees that are being taken advantage of and helping portray a fraud. It's called tax evasion.

    As a contractor , general or sub your still a contractor with the same bills I have to run a business all the INS, LIC, maintenance costs, operating costs etc etc how can you make money at $65 an hr. I would be paying them for the privilege.

    I remember a tread where everyone said that they charge $100 to $200+ an hr for a truck with an operator. So, how can bill out this same truck and operator for $60 -65 an hr?

    So now do you see what I'm talking about?
    Or do I need to paint you a Pic?

    Ps. Things were dead around hear I thought I would liven them up a little.................
  16. creativedesigns

    creativedesigns PlowSite.com Addict
    Messages: 1,929

    I think the "Sno" has gotten to the " Farmer" ?!?! lol ....:dizzy: :dizzy:
  17. Indy

    Indy Senior Member
    Messages: 704

    Contractor = responsible for the contract with the customer and all the liability, risk, profit, scheduling, and all details regarding service. Pays taxes on his profits or pays for repairs IF he even works on the job at all. Say he agrees to get one million an acre. HE keeps the profit if he gets the work done cheaper.

    SUB-Contractor = works under the contractor as agreed on a job by job basis and typically have less risk (although they are insured, typically on there own but work at the discretion of the contractor) Some contractor will cover them with their insurance just to make sure they aren't working un-insured.

    The contractor can higher one or two or ten or a hundred SUB contractors to do the work he has contracted for. If he over shoots on labor he eats it, if he under shoots on labor he is stuck working or paying additional hours he didn't intend to pay.........either way and anyway it is his win or his loss and the SUB contractors get paid, usually by the hour and usually at the rate that has been discussed here.

    At the end of the given pay period the Contractor will pay the sub contractor a full cash amount of pay (no taxes, no insurance, no equipment repairs) just hourly or per job.

    At the end of the year, normally Jan 1 to Jan 31 (latest by law) the Contractor will send a 1099 to the SUB contractor stating he was a sub contractor and he made $ this much money AND the CONTRACTOR will also send that information to the IRS, however many SUB contractor DON'T report that as income and can and likely will face fines and penalties from the IRS for not reporting, but that does not affect the contractor.

    This is the only way i have ever seen a contractor use a sub-contractor. Other than that if you work for a contractor, you are an employee and taxes will be taken out of your pay and benefits offered as per a standard employer/employee relationship.

    Just my .02
  18. Indy

    Indy Senior Member
    Messages: 704

    I think your on the money Big Dave, but we will see how the summer and fall unfold and unfortunately you may be low on your next season price it is a good question that I don't think we can answer (what is fair to pay or what is fair to ask for) until we get a little closer.:salute:

  19. PaulSmith

    PaulSmith Junior Member
    Messages: 9

    creativedesigns, ......roflmao......

    Sno? Am I a subcontractor?
  20. Quality SR

    Quality SR PlowSite.com Addict
    Messages: 1,828

    The rates by me were $65 an hour for a sub ( pick up 8 footer) More for a V. Contractors normally got $125- $150 an hour. And $25 for shovelers. I dont know what contractors got in your area. But if there not making at least $150 an hour, i dont know if you being a sub will get $80. But who knows, everything will be going up by next winter. Contractors will have to raise there rates too. So will you get $80 an hours at this rate, maybe. :rolleyes:
    Last edited: May 3, 2008