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Salt Problems

Discussion in 'Ice Management' started by doo-man, Jan 23, 2010.

  1. doo-man

    doo-man Senior Member
    Messages: 387

    Well I thought I would post this and see if anyone else is or has had this problem?

    I received my first shipment of ICE Patrol Rock Salt 10,000#'s and had good luck with it, it spread good and worked out great for us.

    Well I ran into a snag when I re-ordered from same supplier the product was mostly dust had very I mean very little rock consistency to it and kept clogging the spreader.

    I called supplier they said we will look into it. Well they called back and stated we have opened several bags from several different pallets and were finding the same thing. They contacted their supplier and found out it was a bad batch was mostly end run!!!!

    Well I advised them to come pick said bad product up and I would locate another supplier.

    I contact company 2 to supply me rock salt, well they arrived on time and as soon as driver starts to unload I noticed it was ICE Patrol brand. I stopped him before he removed any product, I tore open a bag and all be gosh dang it same CRAP driver said wow that stuff is junk !!

    Well I told him not to unload and I would call his boss. Well boss said send him back and he would look into it also. Boss hasnt gotten back to me but I know what the final answer will be !!!!

    I noticed the date codes were the same and found out that the main supplier had issues with that particular dated product run. DATE CODE 12-2-09

    Just curious if any of you have had this problem??

    I ended up going to HOME DEPOT to get my salt and they matched the suppliers cost !

    [​IMG]
     
  2. forestfireguy

    forestfireguy PlowSite.com Addict
    Messages: 1,276

    We had a similar issue with Morton this season. They gave us a price about 10 bucks a ton cheaper than anyon else, thought it was great! First load shows up, very very fine, but we let it go, next order was 3 loads, so now we're about 100 tons into this crap. Called up and complained they said it was a clearance price for "insutrial grade" salt, does not meet ISO standards ETC. So I say we were never told any of that, guy tells me thats impossible, we tell everyone and even had them sign an "as is" agreement. So I said PLEASE send me a copy of that signed agreement.......Low and behold nothing ever came, guy acts all confused when I called back, I said you can't find it because we never signed it. So they ended up crediting us 25 %, which considering the headaches we went through was fair. We're using Cargill, a local guy and Apalachee now.................
     
  3. grasmancolumbus

    grasmancolumbus Senior Member
    Messages: 148

    I got stuck with a semi load of that Ice Patrol Crap late last year fine dust and and large clumps got to be the worst salt I have ever seen,
     
  4. MahonLawnCare

    MahonLawnCare Senior Member
    from Ohio
    Messages: 852

    i just got an order of 4 ton of morton and it is junk! its powder, doesn't spread right...i'm not happy
     
  5. forestfireguy

    forestfireguy PlowSite.com Addict
    Messages: 1,276

    Probably the same S**T they sold me Mahon, call and yell. Only thing that salt is good for is making brine as it's very pure sodium chloride, but for a spreader it's absolute garbage.
     
  6. ChlorideGuy

    ChlorideGuy Member
    Messages: 77

    Yet another reason to make the switch to liquids!!!!!!!
     
  7. Matson Snow

    Matson Snow PlowSite.com Addict
    Messages: 1,985

    I got a question for you Chloride Guy...If liquids are the end all be all...Why haven't the countys such as Oakland, Macomb, Wayne Etc...Switched to all liquids...There is always gonna be a place for salt...Just as there is gonna be a place for liquids
     
  8. leon

    leon Senior Member
    Messages: 872

    bagged rock salt problems

    The polar salt mix ismost likely from the Sfto Salt Mine in Goderich, Ontario.

    The Kissel group in Ontario is a reseller for many of the products that coastal minerals either mines or evaporates in salt product in Ontario as contracted bag product or block of evaporated salt buyer for resale.

    I do not believe they bag any salt at the Cote Blanche Island mine near Franklin, La also owned by Sifto salt which is owned by Coastal Minerals headquartered in Overland Park, Kansas.


    The shallow mine at Goderich breaks and conveys 1,000 tons of run of mine minus six inch rock salt per hour to its new screening plant that replaced the old one originally built for the mine underground.


    The salt seam mined at Goderich is mined in two passes and uses undercutters, face drills, and floor drills for drilling bench blast holes to remove the salt that is mined under Lake Huron.


    The horizon of the salt seam is over cut with undercutter to maintain a flat roof line to aid in roof bolting and (what is referred to as ground control where the roof is scaled of loose salt and rock when required. The flat ceiling also allows for very thorough inspection of the roof with out difficulty.

    The salt is transported by LHD load haul dump low profile loaders and large end dump trucks used in surface mining in the fifty ton class of payload.


    The salt is transported from the mine face and dumped into a belt feeder breaker at the 1,000 ton per hour rate of breakage and dumped into the conveyor from the mine face to the screen plant. for the entire distance.

    The minus six inch salt and any finer salt travels and grinds agaianst all the other salt and moves constantly creating more dust.

    The salt enters the screen plant is screened at the rate of 1,000 tons per hour, in the first two cuts using elliptical screens for the primary screens.

    The oversize is allowed to drop away and forward of the upper screen decks and are conveyed tot he crushers where the oversize is broken and then conveyed to the flight convyer which feed the final screens where any dust being thr consistancy of pancake floor( minus thirty mesh is screened and allowed to drop away to a waste belt my former employer uses a compactor to recycle its waste salt when it works sometimes :laughing: They still have a lot of rock in thier salt due to the fact that the salt seam is taken all the way to the roof rock-this is why you see prehistoric pieces of red potash in specks of rock within in it.


    The Goderich mines uses a quality control system to remove the rock bits from the product using a lazer grading machine in combination with an air blast unit to remove the bits of rock remaining in the salt- this was done with human labor in the surface mill at our mine until the mine was sold to the new owners in 1970.


    The Morton salt mine at Himrod, New York operated from 1967-1976 and hoisted its minus six inch product to the surface where it screened, crushed, stock piled and loaded into rail cars and packaged the salt in bags for resale.

    The mine was developed by the mining builder contractor Cdementation of Canada and ownership of thre mine was transferred to Morton salt when the mine was developed and construction was completed.


    The entire waste salt product was screened and dumped into a waste storage pile on the surface of the mines property until the mine was forced to close due to the salt water runoff from the waste salt fines pile in 1976 and was placed in a standby mode where the salt hoisting shaft and men and materials shaft were sealed and the mines equipment was removed.

    The mine had 2 millon tons of Halite inventory remaining on the surface at the time of closure in 1976.


    The waste salt fines were cold brined and dissolved using seneca lake water with a rail mounted deluge gun/fire nozzle to dissolve the entire waste pile and was allowed to drain to a bore hole drilled from the surface to drain back underground to solve the problem.

    When the mine was developed the salt was broken and conveyed to the skip loading pocket in twenty ton loads using a counterbalanced tower mounted hoisting system with one ore skip is being loaded at the mine loading pocket and the other is being dumped at the surface onto the recieving conveyor where it was conveyed to the surface screening plant a short distance away.and processed on the surface which eliminated the construction and expense of an underground screen plant and the work required to mine it out to size where it would have occupied an area almost a foot ball field long and 30-45 feet deep and 30 feet or more wide.













    The problem with bagged Halite salt is both complex with cost of operating issues and the fact that Halite is a seasonal product which exists simply because it is a small percentage of the bulk salt product.

    Rock salt was not used for highways until the late 1930's and after the interstate highway system was built the market for rock salt increased dramatically with Bare Roads Conditions at all times thanks to the americas addiction to tghe automobile and many state and federal highway administrations mandates for clear roads at all times. The salt water pollution created from the resuling runoff of melted salt water is having many repercussions affecting water quality nation wide and the problem is not simply a seasonal one. as salt concentrations remain high due to salt deposits left from spreading operations on the edge of the highways wasitng salt, time, machineries expense, and tax dollars.


    The fines in a bag of rock salt is an "ooopsy"

    item where the halite may have a lot of dust because the finished salt screens are used for both road salt and bag salt.

    Any oversize salt is screened away from the bagging salt which is also part of the bulk salt volume stream hoisted to avoid problems with bagging machinery.


    The thirty mesh screens the last defense in salt sizing for halite as dust is no no with municipal users and state contracts.


    The bagged salt supplies are simply a side line with a huge markup for resale in both bid contracts and open market sales in any volume.


    The problem with finishing screens is the salt will surge across the screen fabric and plug it and the entire volume of salt has the same problem, where the dust escapes the screen because it was blinded by the mass flow.

    The dust vacuum collection systems are also overwhelmed as they do not employ cylones to filter out and slow down the majority of the particles prior to th ecartridge filters(in my former employers case)


    The "no cake" sodium cyanide powder is mixed in a water solution to facilitate the salts ability to flow freely out of doors and it also knocks down the dust fines of the bulk road salt supplies.

    ==============================================================
    The bagged product is not sprayed with it (unless its been changed as policy-but I doubt it.)

    I state this with my having knowledge of my former employers( Cargill ) operating methods only.
    =================================================================



    The value added salt products with the deicing enhancers etc. are simply srayed on or mixed in dry proportion to each volume of salt packaged and the untreated salt is bagged during the off months to keep the regular crews busy and the specialty salts are packaged during the time period between the order is placed and then delivered to a reseller and then to the end user or warehouse with in a 3 month period after the order is placed.

    The salt is packaged palletized and sits until its moved a second time to the box car or truck where it travels, compacts and grinds some more, sits in the warehouse and then it is sold to the end user and OOOOPSY you have a product that has traveled hundreds of miles in some cases and witht the resulting additional generation of dust fines.


    There is no easy solution for the dust problem with bagged untreated Halite product short of washing it with a salt water rinse, drying it in a rotary kiln drier exacatly like the ones used to heat cement clinker then bagged- solar salt is a high value product and is much more vaulable for resale due to its very clean very high saline content salt which is denser and is much more durable than Halite even though Halite typically has a Rockwell number of 3 and a Mohs number of 4 in hardness strength from what I remember.


    Dedusting of salt is easy by horizontal screens, gravity, and vacuum but the product volume does nit justify the expense for same.

    It can be easily done by the end user using a large sample splitter and screen cloth with a shop vac connected to a pan under the narrow screen cloth but the end user has to decide if it is worth the time and effort as it could be done prior to spreading by pouring the cleaned salt into a traffic cone feeding another bag tied with a millers knot or a pail with a lid..

    A top soil rotating trommel screen would do it quickly amd the fines would drop out
    but the salt would have to be desacked and then used as needed by filling a bucket or placing the trommel scfreen by the spreader to feed directly into it.


    Bagged Halite salt is a secondary product with problems all its own
    and the end user is the last link in the supply chain delivery chain and
    deals with the consequences in regard to the condition of the Halite
    product from any supplier, co-op retailer selling pallet loads, or a retail outlet like the
    big box animals.
    .:dizzy::eek:
     
    Last edited: Jan 26, 2010
  9. grasmancolumbus

    grasmancolumbus Senior Member
    Messages: 148

  10. gamberbull13

    gamberbull13 Senior Member
    Messages: 125

    holy crap, is this the modern marvels thread
     
  11. gamberbull13

    gamberbull13 Senior Member
    Messages: 125

    that might be the longest post ever

    enjoyed it a lot tho
     
  12. forestfireguy

    forestfireguy PlowSite.com Addict
    Messages: 1,276

    Leon,

    You sure you didn't invent salt??? You seem to know everything!!!!
     
  13. hitachiman 200

    hitachiman 200 Senior Member
    Messages: 262

    wow ..... long post but worth the read. Thanks for the info.:nod:
     
  14. MahonLawnCare

    MahonLawnCare Senior Member
    from Ohio
    Messages: 852

    will they do anything? Me and a buddy of mine both got a couple tons from this place he got 80s and 50s and I got 50s and they are all junk. I thought about calling my supplier and raising hell but I figured they would just shrug it off
     
  15. leon

    leon Senior Member
    Messages: 872

    salt etc.

    All of you should know what happens before you buy a Halite
    based deicer and the fact that is is a small portion of salt
    sales and that the product has issues only because of its
    chemistry.


    ===========
    A few weeks ago when Europe was dealing wth the snow
    and ice and freezing temperatures The United Kingdom
    ran out of locally mined Halite in its municipal stock piles
    for deicing due to one simple fact:

    The fact is that they "overreacted" and spread the entire inventory
    contained in municipal and rural stock yards, and as a result
    of this and the fact that the weather was so poor, the visibility
    so bad, and the snow so deep, and the traffic being what it was
    with no one staying off the road the lorry operators could not
    replenish the public stock yards with available salt from the one
    mine operating actively in Great Britain.

    And I do not know if they have to plow much or have
    many plows due to the relatively mild winters with rain and cold
    as normal weather conditions.


    The added fact that ground limestone can be used for deicing
    and grit was something which was never pursued due to the
    low cost of the Halite mined in Britain as it is a thick seamed mine
    where they bury flyash-and still do as far as I know in the empty cross cuts by
    filling super sacks with fly ash and then delivering them to the mine to
    be sent underground as frieght where it is transported from the men
    and materials shaft where it is loaded on a flat bed truck and then
    transported to the area of the mine where the fly ash is stock piled in
    the old mined out workings.

    The fly ash is unloaded off the flat bed truck by a squirt boom crane
    and stacked in the empty cross cut by the same crane which is
    referred to as a reliever which is used in the mining advance to
    shed the weight load above the active mining tunnels by allowing the roof
    of the mined out relievers next to the first and last tunnels to fail and
    eventually fall in to reduce the weight loading from the first entry to
    the last tunnel in themining panel-or yard as it is referred to there
    as a way to reduce roof stress and weight shearing by the simple
    act of letting the reliever fail/shed load/ and reduce the stress
    across the width of the mine entries which are being mined.


    The salt pillars that the mine uses in the room and pillar mining pattern
    are very large as the seam it taken in one shot and are tailored to the
    mines shallow depth as the salt seam is very thick and the overburden
    layer is shallow.

    The under cutter used is mounted on crawler boom arrangement
    where the floor, walls and the roof line horizon are cut on one pass
    to profile the salt pillar as well as provide a flat roof surface for roof scaling
    and roof bolting as well as safe passage roof convergence pins.

    The salt pillars are designed to be a simple upside down trapezoid
    with the narrow flat top part of the pillar is the area left to contact
    the mine floor and crush at a very slow very safe rate of convergence.
    due to the pillars square area increasing as the roof converges doing
    two things slowing the amount of convergence and and at the same
    time creating more roof support for the mine as it ages.
    The mine there is only 60 or so years old and has very long life span
    and the seams thckness also adds to the mines economies of scale
    for production.


    The method of undercutting and the use of larger drills allows the use
    of massive amount of stress relief being the kerf created by the undercutter around the entire active face whch relieves and eliminating the stress of blasting being transmitted to the surrounding roof and rib area of the pillar as it is created in the mining advance and to reduce the amount of explosive used and at the same time create safe piillar walls and allow a clean roof line horizon to allow easy and quick observation of roof conditions for roof bolting as the mining face advances and the cross cuts are mined as the tunnels advance each shift using the same method of stress relief during the mining sequence advance.


    I am sorry the posts are long but, if I did not explain why the salt
    behaves the way it does, you will never obtain an adequate
    answer as to why you have the dust and rock bits in the
    salt bags you buy for what you do as the actual facts are
    not well known by the end user.

    Knowledge is power.





    Arab Proverb

    There is danger in not knowing what is unknown.


    :waving:
    :sleeping:
     
  16. ChlorideGuy

    ChlorideGuy Member
    Messages: 77

    Well i will reflect back on my post!!! ( Liquids let it all hang out)
    Never said liquids will be a end all be all for deicing they are a very good tool to use, However before making a bold statement like you did.( see above caption ) LOL
    I would do a little market research if i were you .
    There are many and i will say it again there are MANY citys accross the states that do all liquids. Some are close by and some are out west,Down south and in the east. And thats a fact. Here is another Fact i will through at ya. I have never said you can switch to all liquids there is a place and a time where they perform better that salt.And liquids are a good tool to use to fight ice and snow. as far as Oakland,Wayne,Macomb, Ect.... They are using liquids with there salt and have for many years.
     
  17. leon

    leon Senior Member
    Messages: 872

    my messages of late

    My sincere apologies for my misspellings as I have forgotten to use the spell check function at least twice.

    Sean, did we not have an advanced button at one time that allows one to go back ito the posts and edit them at one time?

    I know it is possible to do on the VBulletin forums I either moderate on or use daily or it it a limited time item for the posting involved?


    :waving::blush2:

    leon
     
    Last edited: Jan 27, 2010
  18. forestfireguy

    forestfireguy PlowSite.com Addict
    Messages: 1,276

    Mahon,

    My supply of junk salt came direct from Morton, I don't know who you got yours from, maybe worth a call, I got a 25% credit.
     
  19. Burkartsplow

    Burkartsplow PlowSite Veteran
    Messages: 3,245

    I got junk mortons salt for the first half of the year. Real bad. I called and they discounted it for me. I went back to halite and that stuff has been nice size rocks and spreads great.
     
  20. Matson Snow

    Matson Snow PlowSite.com Addict
    Messages: 1,985

    This is your Quote Right.....Please Inform me of the Countys that use ALL liquids in this state...I would like to contact them to see how the results are..I know first hand Oakland county uses liquid as a prewetter on some of their trucks..They also will spray the road before large events with mixed results....They have there own Brine well...I have started using liquids is a small way right now...But i could be a large customer in the future..I was just asking a Question and by your Smart ass response you have lost a future customer.......
     
    Last edited: Jan 27, 2010