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SALT BRINE/LCC What are the effective temperature ranges?

Discussion in 'Ice Management' started by Gr8WhiteNorth, Oct 20, 2014.

  1. Gr8WhiteNorth

    Gr8WhiteNorth Senior Member
    Messages: 212

    For those who mix SALT BRINE and LIQUID CALCIUM CHLORIDE:

    what are the effective temperature ranges for the following mix ratios:

    90/10
    70/30
    50/50



    thx
     
  2. Kubota 8540

    Kubota 8540 PlowSite.com Addict
    Messages: 1,952

    90/10 stops working at about 5F

    70/30 starts falling out of suspension after about 4-5 hours and needs to be recirculated?

    50/50 will work down to lower temps but not sure exactly and better be sprayed as soon as you put it in the sprayer.

    Calcium chloride melts real well at -7F, suppose to melt at lower temps but have not had the opportunity to try it.
     
  3. Metro Lawn

    Metro Lawn PlowSite.com Addict
    Messages: 1,302

    We use mineral well brine which is about 31% total chlorides and it worked for us last year at 20 below (40 below wind chill).
     
  4. Gr8WhiteNorth

    Gr8WhiteNorth Senior Member
    Messages: 212

    does changing the mix of the solution to a heavier proportion of calcium lower the effective temperature range of the solution? Eg- salt brine/LCC from 90/10 to 50/50? If so, what working ranges would you use?
     
  5. Kubota 8540

    Kubota 8540 PlowSite.com Addict
    Messages: 1,952

    Rock salt from +30-+?? (surface temp)

    90/10 from +8F to +30F? (surface temp)

    up to a 50/50 blend = -5F to +8F ( lower the temp = more LCC)

    Below -5F = LCC ( never shot surface temp, T-T-TOO c-c-cold to get out of cab) :laughing:
     
  6. Mark Oomkes

    Mark Oomkes PlowSite Fanatic
    Messages: 10,853

    Wind chill has nothing to do with melting snow or ice on pavement or any place else for that matter.
     
  7. framer1901

    framer1901 Senior Member
    Messages: 812

    Wind chill matters if you have to get outa the truck and guess how much you just applied.
     
  8. NuverPlawd

    NuverPlawd Member
    Messages: 62

    This may not be true. While it is true that it does not have as immediate effect on snow and ice as the sun for example... massive and persistent sub-freezing wind bursts have been noted to lower surface ice temps, leading to slowed melt times and even rapid refreeze.

    Supporting that notion myself, I have a property that has a narrow drive between two larger buildings. It is also on a steep hillside, which faces the north and west. This drive gets pounded by wind and when we have persistent -30F to -40F arctic winds that drive is harder than hell to melt even though the actual temperature is only -7 F to -22 F. It being on a hill makes it especially dangerous. All other areas are good by that time usually. I usually toss a little Calcium in those conditions to ease my mind.
     
    Last edited: Nov 30, 2014
  9. gc3

    gc3 Senior Member
    Messages: 713

    I saw that statement also and wasn't sure if it was correct or not. I always thought it played into the ground temp and freezing process somehow, just didn't know to what extent. It'd be nice to know if it mattered or not for sure.
     
  10. beanz27

    beanz27 Senior Member
    Messages: 984

    My understanding of wind chill, and I may be wrong is this:

    It does not affect objects, or surfaces in the way it affects humans. If the wind chill is -40, but the actual temp is -20, the ground temp will not be below -20.

    Wind will allow surfaces to cool faster to the actual air temp, but it won't go below it. That being said, wind does dry things quickly, so if your spraying something, it could "dry" it off before it can actually do its job fully. Or make it dry off a little where it wouldn't be as effective.

    That's my understanding, hopefully that makes sense.
     
  11. SnoFarmer

    SnoFarmer PlowSite Fanatic
    from N,E. MN
    Messages: 8,445

    Your correct.
    1. What is wind chill temperature?

    A. The wind chill temperature is how cold people and animals feel when outside. Windchill is based on the rate of heat loss from exposed skin caused by wind and cold. As the wind increases, it draws heat from the body, driving down skin temperature and eventually the internal body temperature. Therefore, the wind makes it FEEL much colder. If the temperature is 0 degrees Fahrenheit and the wind is blowing at 15 mph, the wind chill is -19 degrees Fahrenheit. At this wind chill temperature, exposed skin can freeze in 30 minutes.


    2. Can wind chill impact my car's radiator or exposed water pipe?

    A. The only effect wind chill has on inanimate objects, such as car radiators and water pipes, is to shorten the amount of time for the object to cool. The inanimate object will not cool below the actual air temperature. For example, if the temperature outside is -5 degrees Fahrenheit and the wind chill temperature is -31 degrees Fahrenheit, then your car's radiator will not drop lower than -5 degrees Fahrenheit.12.

    Does wind chill only apply to people and animals?

    Yes. The only effect wind chill has on inanimate objects, such as car radiators and water pipes, is to more quickly cool the object to cool to the current air temperature. Object will NOT cool below the actual air temperature. For example, if the temperature outside is -5 degrees Fahrenheit and the wind chill temperature is -31 degrees Fahrenheit, then your car's radiator will not drop lower than -5 degrees F.

    Not to be confused with evaporation.
    For molecules of a liquid to evaporate, they must be located near the surface, be moving in the proper direction, and have sufficient kinetic energy to overcome liquid-phase intermolecular forces. When only a small proportion of the molecules meet these criteria, the rate of evaporation is low. Since the kinetic energy of a molecule is proportional to its temperature, evaporation proceeds more quickly at higher temperatures. As the faster-moving molecules escape, the remaining molecules have lower average kinetic energy, and the temperature of the liquid decreases. This phenomenon is also called evaporative cooling. This is why evaporating sweat cools the human body. Evaporation also tends to proceed more quickly with higher flow rates between the gaseous and liquid phase and in liquids with higher vapor pressure. For example, laundry on a clothes line will dry (by evaporation) more rapidly on a windy day than on a still day. Three key parts to evaporation are heat, atmospheric pressure (determines the percent humidity) and air movement.
    Evaporation is an endothermic process, in that heat is absorbed during evaporation.
     
    Last edited: Nov 30, 2014
  12. Mark Oomkes

    Mark Oomkes PlowSite Fanatic
    Messages: 10,853

    Your understanding is correct.

    Wind chill has absolutely ZERO effect on inanimate objects. Anybody who states differently doesn't know what they are talking aboot.
     
  13. NuverPlawd

    NuverPlawd Member
    Messages: 62

    Perhaps our terminology is creating a miscommunication. The Arctic blasts that I am speaking of that are creating a windchill effect actually do possess colder air.
     
  14. NuverPlawd

    NuverPlawd Member
    Messages: 62

    That colder air combined with its high velocity does cause decreased surface temperatures.

    I can definitely also understand why the drying effect of high velocity wind bursts even though it only "feels" colder to us further inhibits road salt effectiveness. Salt needs to become a brine to work.. which means no liquid no more melty.

    I'm definitely no meterologist, but I'd have to say that these occurrences in my area at least, from Lake effect to Artic blasts to El Nino.. bring barometric humidifYing atmospheric solar flare similarities that further either nor neither inhibit or expedite the ice exfoliating process.
     
  15. Mark Oomkes

    Mark Oomkes PlowSite Fanatic
    Messages: 10,853

    What in God's green earth are you babbling anout?
     
  16. SnoFarmer

    SnoFarmer PlowSite Fanatic
    from N,E. MN
    Messages: 8,445

    You can only have a windchill factor at temps below 50*F.
    no mater hoe fast the wind blows, why because we made it up, windchill it is not real but a perceived temp based on a formula to tell us what it will feel like to exposed skin of a living thing.


    You did read what the scientists at the nws said about windchill, right?

    If the temp is -32 and the wind from a polar vortex or from El Nino blows across your lot at 100mph the temp is still -32. as far as the lot or any inanimate object even your truck.
    or
    Are you trying to tie in the evaporative effect into windchill?

    because it is already factored in. That is one of the reasons it feels cooler when the wind blows to us.

    so the wind is evaporating the moisture, so your salt becomes infective.
    because it lacks moisture.

    I guess i can buy into that but that has to be some dry air for it to have any real effect in my opinion.
     
    Last edited: Nov 30, 2014
  17. NuverPlawd

    NuverPlawd Member
    Messages: 62

    Right. But the Polar Vortex winds are actually colder than the air around it. During these events the pockets of polar air collide with the warmer local air. The bursts are not only cold as hell, but fast... And the systems are low pressure sucking the water vapor out of the area.

    Again, I should have better specified my support of "windchill" effects to these type of events. There are certainly more things at play during an event than air temperature, when combined weird things happen.
     
  18. SnoFarmer

    SnoFarmer PlowSite Fanatic
    from N,E. MN
    Messages: 8,445

    Right as the air in a polar vortex is cold and you have to be in it to experience it.
    And when your in one this "air" makes up where we get the ambient temperature reading from
    Or for the layman it's the temp you see on the thermometer .
    It doesn't make any difference if it is a polar vortex, which we see every winter.
    -23 is -23. Vortex or not.
    Cold air is always hitting warm we call it a front it could be a warm front or a cold front.


    Cold air can only hold so much moisture ie humidity .
    It also has a very low dew point.


    For an inanimate object, windchill has an effect if the object is warm. For example, say that you fill two glasses with the same amount of 100-degree water. You put one glass in your refrigerator, which is at 35 degrees, and one outside, where it is 35 degrees and the wind is blowing at 25 mph (so the windchill makes it feel like 8 degrees). The glass outside will get cold quicker than the glass in the refrigerator because of the wind. However, the glass outside will not get colder than 35 degrees -- the air is 35 degrees whether it is moving or not. That is why the thermometer reads 35 degrees even though it feels like 8 degrees.
     
    Last edited: Nov 30, 2014
  19. concreteguy

    concreteguy Senior Member
    Messages: 130

    So an air cooled engine doesn't get cooled by the air ;)
    I think you're on track with people's misconception of the effect of wind chill.
     
  20. SnoFarmer

    SnoFarmer PlowSite Fanatic
    from N,E. MN
    Messages: 8,445

    Is that directed at me and mark?
    Because that is not what we said at all.

    A air cooled engine makes heat.
    As the wind/air passes over the fins it caries away the hot air from the heat sink, (the fins are a heat sink).
    The air no matter how cold will never cool the engine to a point below the ambient temp , even when it is not running.

    but we already covered this back in post #11

    Can wind chill impact my car's radiator or exposed water pipe?

    A. The only effect wind chill has on inanimate objects, such as car radiators,( air cooled engine) and water pipes, is to shorten the amount of time for the object to cool. The inanimate object will not cool below the actual air temperature. For example, if the temperature outside is -5 degrees Fahrenheit and the wind chill temperature is -31 degrees Fahrenheit, then your car's radiator will not drop lower than -5 degrees Fahrenheit.12.