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Residual Salt

Discussion in 'Ice Management' started by William Brett, Sep 12, 2010.

  1. William Brett

    William Brett Member
    Messages: 57

    Hi Guys, I know you are all going to say there are a huge number of variables concerned but is there any wayof working out residual salt levels are there any tools for measureing it on site.

    Cheers in advance

  2. hydro_37

    hydro_37 PlowSite Veteran
    from iowa
    Messages: 3,790

    experience is the key
  3. deicepro

    deicepro PlowSite.com Addict
    Messages: 1,124

    x2..........there is a calculator somewhere here:rolleyes:
  4. leon

    leon Senior Member
    Messages: 872

    salt leftovers


    The only true and accurate method is where a saline refractometer is used to determine saline saturation.
  5. JDiepstra

    JDiepstra PlowSite.com Addict
    Messages: 1,780

    Typical for this site.......... everyone claims to be helpful, but is not.
  6. grassmaster06

    grassmaster06 Senior Member
    Messages: 415

    if the ground is white and and powdery
  7. William Brett

    William Brett Member
    Messages: 57

    Had a look at refractometers online and my understanding is u need to put a liquid sample in how can do you do this if measureing residual salt on pavement? am i being dum?
  8. leon

    leon Senior Member
    Messages: 872

    salt etc.

    No you are not

    Its a case of covering a certain amount of ground wih a tarp and driving over it and collecting the salt, weighing it dividing the weight per square foot or square yard to determine the weight of the salt dumped and then determining the salinity which will
    vary per amount dumped and speed of travel;

    the problem is one of quality AS halite today is plagued with dust and as a result it affects the total amount delivered and may or may not exceed a minimum salt content;

    saying that the halite sold is of a very high saline content anyway which is only salt volume in relation to inert ingrediants- shale, limestone, anhydrite, potash, gypsum, etc.,
    and solar salt is even higher in saline content as it is concentrated with little inert ingredients except when the road miner cuts too deeply and digs up some soild mud/rock in the bottom of the concentrating ponds.

    The only quick way is to spread a little depending on snow and ice conditions shovel a square foot of snow and salt up melt it to fluid/salt water mixing slightly to speed melting and settling out inert ingrediants as much as posssible, then taking a salt water sample with an eye dropper and measuring the salinity.

    The problem is salt product inconsistancy and that wont go away as long as AMFO is cheap and is used as an explosive agent in the industry

    The dry method of calibration(tarping and collection) is the best measure planning on 20 percent or more fines per square foot.
  9. Grn Mtn

    Grn Mtn PlowSite.com Addict
    Messages: 1,644

    Leon, your killing me. also if i interpreted what the OP was asking correctly, how does taking a calibration measurement of your spreader have anything to do with the percentage of salt remaining after a storm? also why wouldn't you just skip the spreading the tarp out and just scoop some off the pile for what your describing there would be no difference?
  10. leon

    leon Senior Member
    Messages: 872


    its called coverage per square foot per foot of advance with predetemined spreader settings auger or chain speed wherein the volume delivered with the chain drive or auger consists of:

    1.the space between flights to carry product to end of hopper.
    a. the diameter of the auger, the angle of the flighting which affects the volume of delivery per inch of length wherein the lower angle of flighting reduces the volume delivered per foot of length as more steel is used to move the material and reduce the volume of material moved per foot , and the speed of auger rotation.
    2. the speed of the chain drive motors delivering the mass volume to the rear of the spreader where it encounters the resistance of the rar wall of the spreader and the actual square area of the regulating gate "which is open" and not restricting mass flow created by the flight chain in the hopper bed.

    a. the same rules apply to the use of a delivery auger which is used to create mass flow to the open square area of the hopper "Minus the volume of the auger in transporting the salt to the open end of the hoper.

    The drop height of the delivery system also adds to the the speed of coverage per foot of advance.

    The spinner and the number of paddles in the spinner as well as the speed of rotation
    of said spinner effectively controls the delivery.

    The use of a deflector baffle also affects the speed of delivery as the material is slowed down due the baffle where the baffle prevents salt from being thrown forward while advancing and potentially reduces the coverage of the spinner assembly due to the square area of the baffle affecting the casting distance of material and increasing the amount of material delivered over the reduced circumference created by the baffle reducing the forward discharge.
  11. Grn Mtn

    Grn Mtn PlowSite.com Addict
    Messages: 1,644

    and your point is what Leon? that you misunderstood the OP's question and continue to explain in an unnecessarily long winded answer of what appears to be simple calibration of ones spreader....:sleeping:
  12. leon

    leon Senior Member
    Messages: 872



    Halite even from American rock salt is inconsistant in quality and size and may contain a considerable concentration of minus 30 mesh salt fines and basic calibration works very well with material that is of consistant size and quality.

    What I provided was not a long winded answer where using simple collection methods aid in determining one's delivered material volume per square foot or square yard where the material used is not consistant in size due to the sedimentary and crystalline nature of the material, its rockwell hardness (which is typically 4 depending on salt seam
    where deeper mined salt in europe and the canadian potash and gypsum beds is harder in the strength of materials scale used to determine its breakage limits as it is much older in geologic age and the amount of handling creating more fines which reduces spreading efficiency in every spreader type save one).
  13. alwayz-plowin

    alwayz-plowin Senior Member
    Messages: 166

    I really just spray/ spread i use either brine or rock but i spray or spread and leave i really dont care how much i use i just charge them later for it!
    It works for me because for some ODD reason more of my customers pay their snow bills more than their grass bills........Its actually true! but i know why lol

    If you want to measure go down your drive way with a bucket over the spreader (So all the salt goes into a bucket and see how much you use!)
  14. William Brett

    William Brett Member
    Messages: 57

    Yeh my point wasnt how to calibrate a spreader and i dont no about the rest of you but leons scintific dit confused the hell out of me.

    The question was residual salt ie salt left on/in the pavement the next day.
  15. Grn Mtn

    Grn Mtn PlowSite.com Addict
    Messages: 1,644

    :bluebounc yeah i correctly identified the question.... unfortunately i'm not sure how to measure it, or for that matter WHY you need to measure it. Is it for environmental reasons?
  16. TCLA

    TCLA 2000 Club Member
    Messages: 2,695

    Other than actually sweeping up the residue and weighing it, I am unaware of a method to measure residual salt. This can be done by brooms or a street sweeper.

    Residual salt complaints are common. I overcome this by informing the customer it's actually great insurance for them, and won't be wasted as salt has an unlimited shelf life. It will buy time fending off the next batch of flurries or dusting...a pre-ap if you will. Some times another ap may not even be necessary.

    Most times throwing down the perfect ap is luck....not skill. I don't know about everyone else but we are out servicing our sites when they are just beginning to get covered, and it really is a judgment call how much to apply based on the current site conditions, and how much more snow will fall before it stops.

    It's frustrating having to repeat everything when it lightly snows for 3-6 hours and we only receive 1/2" or so of accumulation.
  17. William Brett

    William Brett Member
    Messages: 57

    Was just wondering if there was a way so you could gaurentee enough salinity to keep the ice at bay without retreating, thus saving money.
  18. Grn Mtn

    Grn Mtn PlowSite.com Addict
    Messages: 1,644

    okay now were getting the info needed.

    the problem though is all the variables, temp/humidity/wind/precip/traffic. the list goes on. this could mean that the amount left over would or would not be enough, or would be enough but not for the entire next event.

    scraping the lots clean before appling deicers is the best way minimize the amounts needed for effective control, and in this line of business where people can get hurt, a little excess doesn't hurt:nod: