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refrozen ice

Discussion in 'Ice Management' started by gc3, Nov 29, 2014.

  1. gc3

    gc3 Senior Member
    Messages: 713

    The other night we had snow that was heavy, wet,& slush when plowing it. When done our guys came later and salted. The next couple days were overcast and well below freezing temps. All the surrounding lots, including some spots on ours, were just caked with ice. Lawsuits just waiting to happen. It was really bad. My question is even if the ice melts somewhat from the salt or driving over it, it's gonna refreeze in the lot again during the day if the temps are low and no sun out. So how the heck are you supposed to make the lot black again and remove the ice if this process just repeats itself..salt then melts then refreeze?
     
  2. 1olddogtwo

    1olddogtwo PlowSite Fanatic
    Messages: 11,503


    Reapply salt.
     
  3. gc3

    gc3 Senior Member
    Messages: 713

    So your saying just reapply the salt at the same rate no matter what time of day or night and eventually, 2,3,4, saltings or days later it will eventually burn it up and disappear?
     
  4. Jfdvrod

    Jfdvrod Junior Member
    Messages: 11

    I have had to explain this to several of my accounts. If the lot does not drain well, it may require additional salt treatments to mitigate re-freeze scenarios. They seem to understand
     
  5. gc3

    gc3 Senior Member
    Messages: 713

    Cause it looked like whoever plowed these lots, a few days later when I was doing errands, didn't salt at all and just said screw it.
     
  6. gc3

    gc3 Senior Member
    Messages: 713

    I get the refreeze process, and chances are even if you salted and it was melting it all isn't going to drain into a storm drain 400 feet away. So is the only way to get rid of it by burning it up with numerous applications of salt to burn it up right where it lays?
     
  7. gc3

    gc3 Senior Member
    Messages: 713

    I thought maybe some contractors would salt it again then replow the lot once it melted a little during the day and try to maybe scrape up some of that ice before it froze again. Just to see if it'd come up some. Maybe the best option is just to keep resalting it till it burns itself up.
     
  8. concreteguy

    concreteguy Senior Member
    Messages: 130

    Maybe now that you've serviced the lot, the next snow you'll be able to clean down to pavement better, and the salt you apply will be more effective.
    I'm not sure from the legal stand point who's responsible after the storm has been gone for a day. Just make sure you put in your contract that the customer is responsible in contacting you in un-safe conditions or charge for the monitoring of the lots post storm. If you create piles and the melt off re-freezes, then I think you're responsible. Some lots may need to be salted and when it melts, you plow the ice to clear the lot, and then salt again
     
  9. Ropinghorns

    Ropinghorns Senior Member
    Messages: 120

    13 stores in a local Tulsa hamburger chain fired us for the same reason. I asked them if I should have used a bulldozer. [Oklahoma people and ice do not mix well].
     
  10. Emmanuel

    Emmanuel Member
    Messages: 50

    We had the same storm roll through. Rain turned to snow and the temperature dropped like a rock. The areas where the cars were parked were the worst. Most of our places are 24 hr so we're never able to completely clean the lot. So we plowed and then salted everything. The next day we scraped the spots that needed it and resalted. It took us a good 3 days to get everything bare which is extremely out of the ordinary. If we know it's going to warm up one day and there's a layer of hardpack we will go out and plow the slush off so I won't re freeze.
     
  11. gc3

    gc3 Senior Member
    Messages: 713

    So I guess the best thing to do would be since there was no sun forecasted for the next 4 days and frozen temps, is to resalt the whole place or spot salt then wait awhile and try and scrape that ice/slush up and to the pile. If it's not coming up easy then just resalt it and let it sit on it and check it out the next day and reapply again. You'd think the only thing stopping it would be the melting ability of the salt. If the melting temperature ability of the salt was high, you'd think it would be able to melt it completely and if the salt was still next to that liquid, that the chemical process of the heat would dry it up completely.
     
  12. Longae29

    Longae29 PlowSite.com Addict
    Messages: 1,954

    What application rates are you using? When we apply salt after plowing the lots are dry by the next day.
     
  13. Emmanuel

    Emmanuel Member
    Messages: 50

    Ya we will spot salt and then plow at the warmest time of day. When the snow and ice is thick the salt just bores a hole right down to the asphalt and it doesn't melt much.
     
  14. Emmanuel

    Emmanuel Member
    Messages: 50

    We only had issues where the cars park. The alley ways were dry. Some of our accounts have parking assignments in place for the winter months where they will park on one side of the lot for day shift and the other side for night shift. Others have 3 shifts plus office people that come in at other times so usually there's always stalls that the cars sit and pack down the snow. They clean there cars off and it builds up. And we all know that others aren't smart enough to park in a clean stall if it means a longer walk. We try to pop in and clean open stalls as much as possible.
     
  15. gc3

    gc3 Senior Member
    Messages: 713

    If I had to guess the guy that salted the lots, his rates were to low. What salt are you using(is it prewetted? ), what rate per acre did you apply at when the snow was super wet and just icing the ground after scraping a pass?
     
  16. gc3

    gc3 Senior Member
    Messages: 713

    If that ice is thick and if that salt pellet just bores a hole to the ground and doesn't do anything then what should you do to get that up if that didn't work?
     
  17. SnoFarmer

    SnoFarmer PlowSite Fanatic
    from N,E. MN
    Messages: 8,454

    In these cases salt , the salt bores threw the ice/packed snow, loosening it's bond with the pavement, it can then be scraped up with your plow.
     
  18. Emmanuel

    Emmanuel Member
    Messages: 50

    Yep. Plow it. Otherwise skid loader or loader will peel it up
     
  19. gc3

    gc3 Senior Member
    Messages: 713

    How much time roughly after you salt the lots do you come back and check it to see if it worked or if you need to scrape the layer and reapply salt if needed?
     
  20. SnoFarmer

    SnoFarmer PlowSite Fanatic
    from N,E. MN
    Messages: 8,454

    The amount of ice/snow build up, the amount of salt used and the ambient temp would all be factors.