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Questions for Deicerpro and Kobota

Discussion in 'Ice Management' started by ndnchief, Nov 24, 2011.

  1. ndnchief

    ndnchief Member
    Messages: 49

    Deicepro.....I have read thru the threads and have seen different formulations on making your own calcium chloride brine, This will be my first year going balls to the wall on anti-icing / DE-icing with liquids, I want to get this right, so if you would ( please sir ) post your calculations on this since you seem to be the most knowledgeable on this site about it,
    Amount of pounds per gallon
    What percentage of Dow flake ( 83-87% ) ( 77-78% )
    What percentage on the hydrometer or salimeter should it read

    I am setting up a twin 275 gallon tote brine making system like Kubota has built so are you mixing your calcium brine in a rig like that...if so on calcium do you put the calcium in before or after adding water...I had read on here that there is a heat issue when mixing so I was wondering does that come in to play


    Kubota.....basically the same questions for you
    2.3 pounds salt per gallon
    salimeter reading @ 23.5 % are these correct ?
    I have read you mix 90% salt brine with 10% calcium brine will work to 5 above is this correct and if you mix a 80 /20 mixture what will that melt down to, I never could find that on your postings
    So if I follow your video correctly 1000 # of salt in your tote system will make 400 gallons of brine and I assume when you measure with the salimeter on the lower tote the top tote should have the same or approx. reading is this correct and does the air temp need to be around 60 degrees when making the reading

    Thanks in advance to any info you can provide, you both have been very helpful so far, but I want to make sure I got it right
     
  2. Kubota 8540

    Kubota 8540 PlowSite.com Addict
    Messages: 1,952

    "Kubota.....basically the same questions for you
    2.3 pounds salt per gallon
    salimeter reading @ 23.5 % are these correct ?
    I have read you mix 90% salt brine with 10% calcium brine will work to 5 above is this correct and if you mix a 80 /20 mixture what will that melt down to, I never could find that on your postings
    So if I follow your video correctly 1000 # of salt in your tote system will make 400 gallons of brine and I assume when you measure with the salimeter on the lower tote the top tote should have the same or approx. reading is this correct and does the air temp need to be around 60 degrees when making the reading

    Thanks in advance to any info you can provide, you both have been very helpful so far, but I want to make sure I got it right"

    Yes, 2.3 pounds per gallon.

    23.5% reading @60 degrees when using a 0 to 26.5% Sodium Chloride (NaCl), % by Weight Hydrometer .... http://www.novatech-usa.com/Products/Sodium-Chloride-Calcium-Chloride-Hydrometers/6611-2 .... also refer to by salimeter, salinometer or hydrometer. But 23.5% by WEIGHT.

    91% reading @60 degrees when using a 0 to 100% Sodium Chloride (NaCl), % Saturation Hydrometer.... http://www.novatech-usa.com/Products/Sodium-Chloride-Calcium-Chloride-Hydrometers/6611-2 ........ But 91% by % SATURATION

    1.176 reading @ 60 degrees when using a specific gravity hydrometer ....http://www.novatech-usa.com/Products/Specific-Gravity-Hydrometers/6605-1 .... also refer to as hydrometer or specific gravity hydrometer ...... But by SPECIFIC GRAVITY

    90/10 is the mix I decided to use down to 5F. Visually on the parking lot I did not see any difference using 70/30, 80/20, or 90/10 as far as melting performance. Maybe it would in a testing lab? But I'm not melting snow in a lab, I'm on a parking lot. 70/30 mix was OK if sprayed right away, but had chlorides falling out of suspension with in a few hours and had to remix or stir the batch. 80/20 had less fallout, 90/10 didn't have any fallout even after 10 months when used the following winter. Mix 90/10 once use whenever without re-doing or mixing again. I spray 90/10. Melts the snow and dries off like rock salt does.

    1000 pounds is correct enough. 920# to be exact, IF every kernel of rock salt were to dissolve. I put in 1000 pounds and generally there is just a little left in the bottom of the tote when my brine test 23.5%. From my experience, solar salt dissolves fastest, bulk salt is 2nd, and bag salt is 3rd, in length of time to dissolve into a brine. Different amounts of fines, impurities, hardness, and cost.

    @ 60 degrees is the easiest, because that is the temp most hydrometers, salimeters, or salinometers are calibrated at. Some of the more expensive testers have built in thermometers, others there is a temperature correction formula you can use.

    Expertise? I would question that.! First hand experience ? Absolutely ! :D

    As far as COPING my brine maker? Knock yourself out. That's an extreme form of flattery. Check out my pics in my profile page, if you can't find details of what you need, let me know and I'll post some or send you some.
     
    Last edited: Nov 24, 2011
  3. ndnchief

    ndnchief Member
    Messages: 49

    Thank You

    Thanks Kubota,
    I've been in the business for 20 years and this is the first year I will be trying liquid....so I,m somewhat anxious over this, without your advice to myself and others and all the pics and video you have posted I would not be doing this..I had the plan to start getting things ready this coming summer but I have changed plans and now I am going at it strong hoping to get it all together before our first snow hits this winter...I have bought a dedicated truck and spray system, got some totes and more on the way....I am ordering pump, motor and all hardware this weekend so hopefully by next weekend ill have the brine maker ready and start making product...I plan on having 30 totes filled and ready for next winter, but this winter I should only be a few ahead before the snow comes ( hopefully )
    Thanks again brother for your help.....Mike
     
  4. Kubota 8540

    Kubota 8540 PlowSite.com Addict
    Messages: 1,952

    Building a brine maker today that will be going to Massachusetts next week and making a short video w/picture clips as I build. It has been so busy around here the past couple months I have nothing ready for winter. No salt hauled in, no sprayers, I usually have 10,000 gallons of mix ready (I now have 1,000) and have no brine maker to make any, sold it too.. 3 orders to fill in the next couple of weeks. But I like it. Feast or Famine, I have had both and on the good side this time.

    If you have any questions, I'm usually on here at My lunch time or mornings and evenings.
     
  5. Kubota 8540

    Kubota 8540 PlowSite.com Addict
    Messages: 1,952

    One other thing I have noticed that doesn't get talked about or much mention when spraying is parking lot surface texture. Concrete is fairly smooth, Blacktop / asphalt can sometimes be very smooth and sometimes very course due to the type of asphalt mixed used. The smoother the surface the less liquid needed. The more pocks on the surface the more liquid is needed. Not sure exactly how much more per acre but it does take more.

    Spraying is just spreading rock salt in a liquid form.

    2_02_10 002 (Small).jpg

    2_02_10 002 (Small).jpg
     
  6. joester

    joester Junior Member
    Messages: 24

    I will be following this post closely as I am in the same situation as ndnchief and was going to post those same questions for you Kubota. I have researched and read most of your posts and seem to have a similar question as ndnchief with regards to how to add in the calcium chloride. I believe you purchase it in bulk liquid form. If I don't have an economical source for bulk liquid calcium, is it still feasible to add the calcium via 50# bags? If so, how many bags would need to be added per 400 gallon batch? Does it matter at what stage of the process or what tank it is added to? Thank you for your sharing of your experiences as well, which have motivated me to get off the fence and make the leap into liquids.
     
  7. Kubota 8540

    Kubota 8540 PlowSite.com Addict
    Messages: 1,952

    Deicepro makes the calcium chloride from bag product and would probably be best to ask about that. But IF I made liquid from bag product, I would make a batch of calcium chloride only. Then after I had made salt brine I would add 40 gallons of liquid calcium chloride to 400 gallon batch of 23.5% brine, but not in the brine maker.

    I put 27-28 gallons of liquid calcium chloride in a 275 gallon tote, then fill with approx 250 gallons of salt brine.

    I do all the adding of liquid calcium chloride outside of the salt brine maker in tanks or totes.
     
  8. Kubota 8540

    Kubota 8540 PlowSite.com Addict
    Messages: 1,952

    Deicepro seems to be M.I.A. here, but I copied and saved this a long time ago from somewhere, might have been off PlowSite even. Not sure how accurate it is though...........

    "First, there is no more Dowflake (78-78%). There is only Dowflake Xtra (83-87%).

    Now put 41 lbs. of Dowflake Xtra in 8.2 gallons of water and you will end up with 10 gallons of 32% liquid calcium chloride.

    If you wanted to make 250 gallons of 32% calcium chloride, you would need 1036 lbs. of Dowflake Xtra and 206.1 gallons of water.

    Also, back to the original ?. In one gallon of water - 4 lbs. Dowflake Xtra and 0.8 gallons of water will give you 1 gallon of 32% cc. "


    SEEMS PRETTY GOOD TO ME? If the info above is correct, you would need 164 pounds of Dowflake Xtra to make 40 gallons of 32% calcium chloride solution, per 400 gallon batch of 23.5% salt brine.
     
    Last edited: Nov 24, 2011
  9. joester

    joester Junior Member
    Messages: 24

    Kubota - thanks for the info which seems to make sense. It seems to me that it would be easier for me to add 3 bags of calcium during the making of each batch, rather than taking the time to make separate batches of liquid calcium and investing in additional storage tanks like you mentioned. Am I missing something in your reasoning?

    If the bagged method were to be used, could the calcium be added from the beginning, or would that throw off the readings on your measurement tool (thus meaning that the calcium would have to be added after the fact)?
     
  10. Kubota 8540

    Kubota 8540 PlowSite.com Addict
    Messages: 1,952

    It would throw the testing off
     
  11. deicepro

    deicepro PlowSite.com Addict
    Messages: 1,124

    Sorry boys, I've been busy playing with my new sidewalk machine!!!

    My definition of an 'Expert' is someone who sits in an office and says that something should work!!!

    I have tons of 3 a.m. freezing my azz off trying to figure out what went wrong experience!!!:laughing:

    Now, everytime I talk about cacl2...half the time it gets deleted or edited by the mods...because I manufacture and distribute cacl2 and I dont pay to advertise on plowsite...
    but if you make a few more posts I can PM you the formula.

    You will need a hydrometer that reads between 1.2sg and 1.4sg for straight cacl2.
    For nacl you will need one that reads 1.0sg to 1.2sg.

    I only use straight cacl2. Works for me. I have tried mixtures and I didnt like the results.
    That not saying they didnt work..! To each his own basically...

    Now, If you are going to blend...you need to know where you are at on both mixtures BEFORE you blend!!!

    More laterThumbs Up
     
  12. deicepro

    deicepro PlowSite.com Addict
    Messages: 1,124

    As I read through some of the earlier posts... If you can use the purest cacl2 pellets you can find!! I use Pleadow 93% to 97% pure...
     
  13. deicepro

    deicepro PlowSite.com Addict
    Messages: 1,124

    Also, If you need help with design for your truck set-up let me know...Kubota or I can save you lots of wasted money on what doesnt workpayup
     
  14. Kubota 8540

    Kubota 8540 PlowSite.com Addict
    Messages: 1,952

    Tons of 3AM expereince LOL!
     
  15. ndnchief

    ndnchief Member
    Messages: 49

    Deicepro and Kobota

    my email address is mikeshelton@insightbb.com
    if you could send any formulas and info here much appreciated

    I already bought a sprayer from chemical containers so I hope its tested and proven...its all ready to go ...I am now working on building the twin 275 gallon tote brine maker like Kubota built....following his pics to the tee...I should have it done by this time next week and will start making product immediately following...I only need to get a few more elbows and I'll have all fittings and valves ready to assemble ..tomorrow I will order pump, engine and appropriate meters to measure salt and calcium brine...I bought a dedicated truck to carry the spray system...its a used wrecker then put a utility bed on it, so far its all looking good, tried to save money on the truck but it ended costing me way to much, oh well live and learn there....pics to follow on truck and sprayer..........Thanks guys..........Mike
     
  16. ndnchief

    ndnchief Member
    Messages: 49

    The truck and sprayer

    311089_2123139169186_1567077083_31729564_853144694_n.jpg
     
  17. deicepro

    deicepro PlowSite.com Addict
    Messages: 1,124

    What size boom is that? Nozzles?
     
  18. Kubota 8540

    Kubota 8540 PlowSite.com Addict
    Messages: 1,952

    I think "Single lane mile boom 7ft aluminum covered Reese plug in boom with stainless steel pipe boom with 12ft spray pattern with quick disconnect fitting"
    "1gpm solid stream stainless spray nozzles and second set of stainless flat fan nozzles w/quick caps for easy on/ off change out"

    I think. Best I can tell from his picture. :laughing:
     
  19. ndnchief

    ndnchief Member
    Messages: 49

    Good eye brother....you are good
     
  20. deicepro

    deicepro PlowSite.com Addict
    Messages: 1,124

    Hmm...
    I tried 1gpm SS nozzles and they plugged up on me. Now I build my boom out of 1" sch 80 PVC, 1/8" holes drilled every 6" and a boombuster nozzle on each end of the boom( with a shut off valve for each, of course). Each 1/8" hole (with my gas pump), puts out 1.8gpm @ 30 psi and/or 2.2gpm @ 60 psi. The pipe is quite flexible which is nice if I back into a snow pile. So, my boom puts out between 28 and 36gpm. I like to get-in, get-out...$$$$