1. Welcome to PlowSite. Notice a fresh look and new features? It’s now easier to share photos and videos, find popular topics fast, and enjoy expanded user profiles. If you have any questions, click HELP at the top or bottom of any page, or send an email to help@plowsite.com. We welcome your feedback.

    Dismiss Notice

Question about Liquids

Discussion in 'Ice Management' started by ChicagoPlower, Mar 8, 2010.

  1. ChicagoPlower

    ChicagoPlower Senior Member
    Messages: 147

    For you guys applying liquid treatments, how much more effective is it than rock salt when pre-treating lots in a hypothetical 1-2" snowfall? Other than melting higher amounts of existing snow, when does rock salt out perform liquid? I'm thinking more and more about trying liquids next year, any help from your experience is great. Thanks-
     
  2. Kubota 8540

    Kubota 8540 PlowSite.com Addict
    Messages: 1,952

    I think this is somewhat of a trick question. Rock salt will out perform liquids when the moisture content of the snow is high. Dilution of the liquids occur quickly with a high moisture content. Using a salt brine/ calcium chloride mix , it works really well on a dry snow. By using a salt brine /calcium chloride mix, it cut my salt usage this year by 50%. We had a lot of 1/2" - 1" dry snows and I used the salt brine mixture. With the salt brine, your taking 1000 lbs approx of rock salt (which normally will treat 1 acre) and mixing with 400 gallons of water( which can now treat approx 4 acres). Its hard for me to justify paying more than $1 / gallon for a liquid. That would cost more than rock salt would. If your careful and can plan on being able to apply rock salt or a liquid, then you can make or save some xtra $$. It's another tool to have in the tool box, but it is not going to replace straight rock salt.

    Sprayer for truck..............$2,500
    400 gallon brinemaker.....$1,000
    2500 gal storage tank .....$1,000
    Misc and hoses ..............$ 500
    _______
    Total min cost..................$5,000
     
    Last edited: Mar 8, 2010
  3. elite1msmith

    elite1msmith 2000 Club Member
    from chicago
    Messages: 2,762


    I have pretty much found the same thing. its useless for wet snows. but for the cold, dry powdery type it works WAY faster, uses way less. those days where its 10 degrees outside, witha 1 inch of dry powder.... you have to keep spreading and spreading rock salt, if your on a lot with no traffic flow.... then it all drys up and you look like a marble becasue you applied so much to make it work... Well with have the liquid, thats no longer the case.

    i cant say that i see too many results for the claim " that it prevents the bond" yeah it did for a litttle while, but i still had some hard pack.

    I think the lquid has its benifits for cold dry snows. it also seems to save work if you are constently applying it, and plowing it off, like in the case of a busy shopping center that has a crew on site the whole event.
     
  4. ChicagoPlower

    ChicagoPlower Senior Member
    Messages: 147

    Thanks for the reply. Just to clarify, you cut your total amount of rock salt used ( amount needed mixing your solution plus salt spread dry when not using liquid) this year, compared to when you were using rock salt only? That's a great result. One more question, roughly what percent of all salt applications (pre-post) were you spreading rock salt instead of liquid application? Thanks again for your help-
     
  5. Kubota 8540

    Kubota 8540 PlowSite.com Addict
    Messages: 1,952

    Yes, correct. But keep this in mind, it worked out OK this year because of the light fluffy snows. If it had of been more small snows with high moisture content it would not have worked out so well. This year probably 40% of the time spraying and 60% spreading rock salt. Next year given the same snow conditions, I will spray more often than I will spread salt. Last winter peaked my interest in the liquid, so I expanded my equipment a little. This winter more than proved my savings and opportunities, so next winter I will have a kick --- sprayer setup on my truck full time and keep the salt spreader on my Kubota.
     
  6. ChicagoPlower

    ChicagoPlower Senior Member
    Messages: 147

    That's very interesting stuff Kubota. Thanks
     
  7. ChicagoPlower

    ChicagoPlower Senior Member
    Messages: 147

    I've been reading other posts about liquids but i still have a couple questions. What's the shelf life like? And when treating accounts in a post plowing situation cleaning up residual snow, do you find yourself applying more solid than liquid on average? Thanks-
     
  8. Kubota 8540

    Kubota 8540 PlowSite.com Addict
    Messages: 1,952

    For me, post plow this year worked fine with liquids because of the low moisture content of the snow. With salt brine, liquidow calcium chloride or a mix of the 2, no problem setting untouched for 10-13 months. Well brine and salt brine mix needs to be stirred occasionally. Straight 32% liquidow calcium chloride, 2 years fine. Cant speak for other liquids.
     
  9. Kubota 8540

    Kubota 8540 PlowSite.com Addict
    Messages: 1,952

    I think you are right on target with what you have stated. Those are the same results I experienced. One nice thing, was the fact of how far you can stretch 1000 lbs of rock salt by making it into a brine. 1000 lbs to normally treat an acre when turned into a liquid will treat 4+ acres. Re app is also good because you can reapply 4 times and still only use the original amount it would normally take. Anti icing works best in my opinion, but I noticed new blacktop takes more liquid than old blacktop?
     
  10. elite1msmith

    elite1msmith 2000 Club Member
    from chicago
    Messages: 2,762

    i didnt get to experiment as much as i would have liked, but the rule was when i doubt use rock salt since we know that it does work. honestly, i think the best setup is a truck that could apply either or type of deicer at any given time. If i had my choice i would proablly spray for most pre-treating, i would spray, possibly throw a little rock down in constent traffic situations like shopping centers. i would plow it up, then based on the conditions, spray or spread....possibly both on the same property. I think the next rig will have a small tank on it for spraying, and still be able to salt, with a ligth weight removable tank/s , in the event we decide to switch to all liquid for that event.

    cant say i could tell the difference between a new pavment or an older one...thats a strange thing
    really for post applications, i think that you could spray the entire lot, and salt the bad spots.....using prewet salt , might even cut the useage even more
     
  11. Kubota 8540

    Kubota 8540 PlowSite.com Addict
    Messages: 1,952

    Yes on the one truck setup. I have a 1 ton chevy that I was thinking about putting back in to service with a 8' v box and (2) 100 gallon tanks, gas engine to spray, electric pump to the spinner, then 2-3000 lbs rock salt. This size would fit my needs perfectly.

    Having the 3 options with you on call/demand. You could certainly maximize your salt or liquid use, having the ideal product for any given situation.
     
    Last edited: Mar 8, 2010
  12. ChicagoPlower

    ChicagoPlower Senior Member
    Messages: 147

    Great information guys. I've got all summer now to learn up some more and make a decision. It seems like liquids would be an efficient tool to have in the arsenal.
     
  13. Kubota 8540

    Kubota 8540 PlowSite.com Addict
    Messages: 1,952

    I have talked to guys that went total liquid. But I just can't see how they can make it work. Also have talked to guys that pay $2+ per gallon, here again I can't see how they can make it? My only thoughts were, If they can make money and pay $2+ per gallon.....I could make a small fortune by spraying the way I do...different markets support different pricings.
     
  14. elite1msmith

    elite1msmith 2000 Club Member
    from chicago
    Messages: 2,762


    i thought about the same thing, with an additional drop in tank that would some how fit into like 1/2 of the v box to add a few hudred more gals. but honestly ill never own another v box again, so its back to the drawing boards for a sweet undertial gate and lliquid set up
     
  15. elite1msmith

    elite1msmith 2000 Club Member
    from chicago
    Messages: 2,762

    its only worth it, if the cost per gal x the gals per acre are less than the cost of just spreading rock salt. at 2 dollars per gal, 30-40 gals per acre, thats getting pretty close to the cost of bulk rock salt,

    onlt nice side abotu the cost of liquids, i think they are easier to jump into than bulk rock salt. if you were a person spreading bagged salt off your tail gate spreader going to bulk..you need to order the salt up front, build a bin to store it, have a spreader, and some type of loader... that can easy run you 15 k plus. with the liquid, all large storage tank, $1000, some hoses, a pump, and a spray set up ...general cost is around $5000 for a small set up, and if your really resorce full you could do it for even less
     
  16. Kubota 8540

    Kubota 8540 PlowSite.com Addict
    Messages: 1,952

    I think that would be easier to set up than with a v box. I have setup quite a few sprayers in the past year. Built and tried numerous spray bar setups and boomless nozzles also.
     
  17. elite1msmith

    elite1msmith 2000 Club Member
    from chicago
    Messages: 2,762

    last year i was tring to work on a electric set up, but honestly never got time to test it. I really dont like the gas motors any more for any application in this type of temperatures. way too much to go wrong.
     
  18. Kubota 8540

    Kubota 8540 PlowSite.com Addict
    Messages: 1,952

    Thats why I started to make my own mix, to keep the cost down, and have had real good results. At 90/10 salt brine/ cal choride @ .20/gal

    Very true on the bulk salt.
     
  19. Kubota 8540

    Kubota 8540 PlowSite.com Addict
    Messages: 1,952

    Depending on the amount of sq ft you are spraying, electric can be an option. But if your going to spray an acre here and there. Electric will be to slow.
     
  20. elite1msmith

    elite1msmith 2000 Club Member
    from chicago
    Messages: 2,762

    my set up was goign to be around 15 gals per min, with a 10 foot boom , 30 gals per acre application rate , i dont feel like doing the math, but it shoud be close to a 12 mph drive speed, or at least thats abotu what i was aiming for