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part #'s on fan clutches (CHEV HD)

Discussion in 'Chevy Trucks' started by The Sickness HD, Dec 8, 2004.

  1. The Sickness HD

    The Sickness HD Junior Member
    Messages: 2

    Ok, I've read all about the fan clutch problems. I have the same problem with my 02' CHEVY HD. What I'm looking for is an update from some of you guys. I am having on put in on Friday. I am going with part # 15073014, which is apparently the updated fan clutch. A lot of you guys used part #22149894. I was told that this was for trucks without A/C. How did the correction work? Which part did you go with? For those who used PN #22149894, how did it work in the summer(I'm sure most of you have A/C)!?
    Any updates would be greatly appreciated.
    THANKS

    :cry: THE SICKNESS
     
  2. Tarkus

    Tarkus PlowSite.com Addict
    Messages: 1,113

    In the past Gm has basically had 4 or more clutch hubs per truck application. Depending on A/C or not and axle ratio too (below 3.73 or above it) and HD cooling or not. If you research numbers you want what is ever listed with optional HD cooling.
     
  3. Bad Luck

    Bad Luck Senior Member
    Messages: 741

    The Sickness HD - Have you ever looked into going to electric fans? I actually think I'll be switching over soon. Flex-a-lite and perma cool make set ups for your truck. You'll eliminmate fan clutch issues and free up some poines while your at it.
     
  4. Tarkus

    Tarkus PlowSite.com Addict
    Messages: 1,113


    In a HD truck they makes little sense because becaue to move the same amout of air that a good clutch fan can when engine is hot it would take a fan motor that can draw 150 amps and more at peak times or more than you vehical can provide. Besdie why would you want to further tax the electric system on a plow truck??
     
  5. Bad Luck

    Bad Luck Senior Member
    Messages: 741

    In a HD truck they makes little sense because becaue to move the same amout of air that a good clutch fan can when engine is hot it would take a fan motor that can draw 150 amps and more at peak times or more than you vehical can provide. Besdie why would you want to further tax the electric system on a plow truck??

    I think it makes perfect sense. You eliminate any fan clutch issues, you free up some HP and Torque, the fans are adjustable, during low speed plowing you can pull more air for cooling (up to 5500 CFM's), you improve gas mileage, and the fans running at 100% capacity for that truck only pull 28 amps MAX. And that will be for short periods of time.
     
  6. Tarkus

    Tarkus PlowSite.com Addict
    Messages: 1,113

    They will never come close to moving the amount of air needed on a hot day towing up a grade at low speeds and nothing is free if you need 3 to 5 hp or more to move enough air to cool engine, you have to get it from somewhere and one HP equals about 728 watts at 100% efficency so if a motor is about 90% efficent it will use 800 wats per HP or 2400 to 4000 watts to run for same amount of cooling or about 200 to 330 amps at 12volts. Guess where power comes from to run electric fans? THey are okay for light vehicals but not for heavy weights where serious cooling is sometimes needed.
     
  7. Frozen001

    Frozen001 Senior Member
    from Rome NY
    Messages: 908

    Tarkus,

    You are thinking about this all wrong. When you are working with fans you have to think of CFM (or Cubic Feet per Minute). Compare apples to apples. Relating HP to Watts to then amps it totally wrong, it makes no since to make that comparison. Just because you can make the conversion doe not make it correct.

    5 hp in engine power does not directly relate to 728 Thermal Watts. And how to you somehow think that this relates to Electrical current needed to run a fan??? :confused: :confused:
     
  8. Tarkus

    Tarkus PlowSite.com Addict
    Messages: 1,113


    I am comparing apple to apple, you are not. Your electric fans will move nowhere near the CFM that a engine driven fan can deliver when needed. For them to do so it would take a LOT of electrical power. If it takes say 5 HP to move a true 15 to 20,000 CFM (over 300 Cubic feet a second) through front end (and by the way those electric fan CFM rating are with no resistance in intake or discharge path, it drops a lot when restricted) it will take that much power electrically to to do the same as there is not something for nothing here. Then we get back to power issue with your truck needing over 100 amps to run when plowing (Lights, heater, wipers, electric cooling fans, fuel injection gas or diesel and so on) with reduced capacity electric cooling (fans drawing 35 to 50 amps) BEFORE you even run the plow pump. Proper engine driven fan is best choice here.

    And yes 1 HP does equal 728 watts of energy (that much power can do same amount of work in theory and is a engineering standard too) This is why electric cars draw so much power and have some many batteries. A 100hp electric car will draw over 75,000 watts at full output power.
     
    Last edited: Dec 10, 2004
  9. Bad Luck

    Bad Luck Senior Member
    Messages: 741


    Take your numbers and pound salt. Real world experience with these setups has proved beneficial and the numbers posted for amp draw on the MFGs' web site is still way below what you are saying, 200 amps!! You're nuts. Each one of these companies makes HD specific units for these purposes. I'm not really sure where you get your information from but there are multiple, highly accurate sources of this information.

    :salute:

    To list a few:
    http://www.perma-cool.com/
    http://www.flex-a-lite.com/

    For vehicle specifc, the guy owns a 2500HD,
    http://chevytruckworld.tenmagazines.com/
    www.GM-Trucks.com
     
    Last edited: Dec 10, 2004
  10. Frozen001

    Frozen001 Senior Member
    from Rome NY
    Messages: 908

    Where are you coming up with this 15-20,000 CFM number??? The way I remember how clutch fans work is that over a certain RPM the will "freewheel" the fan, limiting its speed. And I see that you are now saying 35-50 amps.. remember that will be the starting surge, running amps might be more like 5-10. Also, a 5hp electric motor provides much more output than a 5 hp internal combustion engine because the engine is only like 10% efficient.

    And no you were not comparing apples to apples... 5HP from the engine =4000 Watts = 330 amps to run a fan??? Do you know what you could run off of 330 amps????
     
  11. Frozen001

    Frozen001 Senior Member
    from Rome NY
    Messages: 908

    Listen you are talking about using a fam to cool an engine... Thermal engergy is in BTU... if you are going to talk about cooling/heating a system you have to think thermally.... Watts is an electrical term... 1 watt = 1 amp @ 1 volt...
     
  12. Bad Luck

    Bad Luck Senior Member
    Messages: 741

    The average small block requires about 3k CFM's to keep it cool. I too would like to know where 15k-20k came from. :dizzy:
     
  13. Tarkus

    Tarkus PlowSite.com Addict
    Messages: 1,113

    Were do you get 3000CFM will cool a the average small block? Maybe idling or with very light loads but not working. Sometimes my truck sounds like a wind tunnel under hood on a hot day and I can sometimes even hear fan coming in and out going down the road sometimes too. Electrics would never cut it on that truck and it never get hot no matter what I do. Some like to try to get that ladt fraction of power out of a truck not me. THe thing I value most in a truck is the abilty to cool engine no matter what I do or the temps outside and electrics will not do that.
     
  14. Frozen001

    Frozen001 Senior Member
    from Rome NY
    Messages: 908

    You have no proof that the electric fan moves anymore or less air than the engine clutch fan??? The thing you have to remember is that the thermal conduction between the radiator and outside air is the critical part, that is why large engines require larger radiators, thus more surface area. The larger surface area allows for more heat to be transfered. The fan only provides cooler air to flow over the radiator fins. The faster the air moves the cooler it will be, but there will be a point where more speed will not result in any faster cooling of the radiator simply because the air/metal thermal conduction resistance limits how fast the heat can be transfered. If I knew more about thermodynamics, I could probably give you a number, but I do not.

    You still have not said where you came up with that huge number for the engine fan's CFM???
     
  15. Bad Luck

    Bad Luck Senior Member
    Messages: 741

    All of my info comes from the sites listed above.

    ...and just to put this post to rest once and for all......

    .....for 2005 all Silverado models will come standard will dual electric cooling fans in place of the older belt driven system for more cooling efficiency and quieter operation....

    Peace. :waving: :salute:
     
    Last edited: Dec 10, 2004
  16. Tarkus

    Tarkus PlowSite.com Addict
    Messages: 1,113


    I love ths one. A 1/10 or maybe 1/6 hp fan moves as much or more air as a engine driven fan on a P/U? Get real! As far as moving more air not cooling it anymore that is not going to happen ever with a electric fan and not likely with a engine driven one either in the real world because as you increase airflow on core you will increase it rate of disapation and you will also further lower engine compartment temps too and add a little bit more cooling from engine block disapation in the slipstream with high airflows. Electric fans on a P/U is a LD thing at the very best or maybe as a augmentation device too.
     
  17. Bad Luck

    Bad Luck Senior Member
    Messages: 741

    :salute:lwjfwoldfjw
     
    Last edited: Dec 10, 2004
  18. Frozen001

    Frozen001 Senior Member
    from Rome NY
    Messages: 908

    Dude you have no idea what you are talking about... The rate of transfer of the heat in the radiator to the air occurs at the same rate regardless of temperature. The thermal energy can only flow from the metal surface to the air at a SPECIFIC RATE. Changing the amount of air flow does not change the rate of thermal energy exchanged.

    For example. Take two forced air furnace units the each produce 100,000 BTUs. Furnace a has the fan set to HIGH speed Furnace B have the fan set at low speed. Which one produces the warmer air?? Furnace B because the air is closer to the warmer heat exchanger that the Higher speed furnace. Why??? because the thermal energy can only be exchanged at a given rate, which is different depending on what the metal heat exchanger is made of.

    Now transfer this to a car radiator. There will be a point in the air flow (CFM) vs. heat exchanged (dissipated from radiator to air) where it will actually become less efficient, thus transferring less hear to air air passing over the radiator. Think about it if that air is flowing over the surface so fast the metal cannot transfer its thermal energy to the air how will it dissipate more heat...

    Listen if an engine mounted fan can only produce 3,000 CFM of air movement, and it takes 5hp from then engine it does the same thing as a 3,000 CFM electric fan that requires only a 1hp motor. Lets face it electric motors are WAY more efficient than internal combustion engines, so it make since that a smaller HP is required to do the same amount of WORK...
     
  19. Tarkus

    Tarkus PlowSite.com Addict
    Messages: 1,113


    Your logic is flawed. The air is heated as it moves thru radiator core and the more it is heated the less temp deferentail between air and water so less heat is tranfered and the warmer water is when returned to engine. The more air flowing through it the cooler it stays relative to the water temp so the more heat is transfered to air and the cooler the water is when it is returned to engine too. Your comparasion on heater is full of holes too because BTU (British Thermal Units) is a measurement of heat in the amount or pounds of water (or air) heated per minute. Lower blower speed with same furnace BTU input will heat air more BUT it will heat less of it too (pounds of it per minute) and capture less energy too because more heat will go up chimmey for higher exhaust and bonnet temps in furnace becuase less heat is being transfered to air used for heating. One of the gripes that some have with ultra high effecincy furnaces is that the air is not as warm because they move more of it at a lower temp to capture more of the total heat energy.

    It is nice that you are thinks about this but you need to do more homework on your logic and thermodymanics.
     
  20. Tarkus,
    There is ONLY SO MUCH air that can flow through the radiator at one time. You are not going to improve that number unless you knock a big hole in the radiator :gunsfiring: I would personally just get the new clutch and it will work fine. Later on guys :waving: