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None payment for snow removal services

Discussion in 'Business Fundamentals' started by datank450, Apr 9, 2016.

  1. datank450

    datank450 Senior Member
    Messages: 139

    Hello everybody! Well I have a sub agreement with a landscaping contractor that I've been pushing snow with for 3 years now. I did winters hourly only helping push the snow, this year they gave me a new contract with agreements to sign for each site I was to service on my own. Last year they asked me to do a couple concrete projects for them, and they would have me bid only on the concrete work. No demolition or what not. They would basically let me know the address and what needs done, and tell me to email the estimate to the office. About 3 1/2 months went by and they finally said they got the job and I could start next week. Well there was never an agreement signed for any concrete project, but they paid up in the end. The customer that I did a set of steps for them used salt this year and the concrete flaked away over the winter and complained to the contractor. Now they are withholding my payment for snow removal so they can pay another contractor to tear out and redo the steps. They also didn't seal the concrete either, witch was not part of my scope of work.. Is this legal for them to do and can I sue and win? What should I do to get paid?
    Please help a brother out!
    Thanks!
     
  2. 1olddogtwo

    1olddogtwo PlowSite Fanatic
    Messages: 11,554

    What's legal is having a sign proposal.

    Do have anything is writing for the snow work?

    Dont you offer any type of warranty?

    I'm not a concrete guy so I won't argee if the salt caused the problem, do you have any pics?
     
    Last edited: Apr 9, 2016
  3. datank450

    datank450 Senior Member
    Messages: 139


    No there isn't any warranties provided for concrete, only a guarantee that it will crack. I did sign a prime contract and agreements for every lot that I serviced for snow removal, but none for the concrete. It is not recommended to use salt in the first year of curing for concrete, it is also recommended to seal the concrete. My job was to pour the concrete, pull forms and get paid.
     
  4. 1olddogtwo

    1olddogtwo PlowSite Fanatic
    Messages: 11,554

    I would think if you signed a contract on the snow, and you did what was required, they have no legal recourse. They have to pay per contact.
     
  5. Whiffyspark

    Whiffyspark 2000 Club Member
    from SOMD
    Messages: 2,402

    Unless this is more than a few thousand dollars it's probably not worth pursuing.

    I don't know if it's legal because you offered no warranty
     
  6. Mark Oomkes

    Mark Oomkes PlowSite Fanatic
    Messages: 10,920

    You can't use salt on concrete for a year?

    Has anyone told the local, state and federal highway folks that?

    Not sure aboot Pittsburgh and Pennsyltucky, but here in Michigan lots of road and bridge work gets done within a month or less of snow season and it gets salted.

    Shoot, I've salted a crap ton of concrete less than a year old without ever having an issue.

    We work for a ready-mix company and they told a competitor he could salt an entire parking lot that was less than a year old.

    Did you use hungry salt? Because this has been discussed before and the consensus of professionals is that the 1 year recommendation is bovine excrement.
     
  7. 1olddogtwo

    1olddogtwo PlowSite Fanatic
    Messages: 11,554

    How much money we talking?

    How is it they pour concrete highways, and a few months later they salt them?

    Why do some guys at salt right to the mix?
     
  8. datank450

    datank450 Senior Member
    Messages: 139

    This is what the concrete plant told me. Now in respect to concrete that hasn't been sealed, yes it should not be salted in the first year.
     
  9. datank450

    datank450 Senior Member
    Messages: 139

    It a different mix for highway. It's called hi early and has a greater cement ratio.
     
  10. Mark Oomkes

    Mark Oomkes PlowSite Fanatic
    Messages: 10,920

    Bull crap........
     
  11. datank450

    datank450 Senior Member
    Messages: 139

    I guess you don't know that salt makes concrete flake away. Concrete is still curing in the first year.
     
  12. Mark Oomkes

    Mark Oomkes PlowSite Fanatic
    Messages: 10,920

    Bull crap.......

    You don't know what you're talking aboot.
     
  13. datank450

    datank450 Senior Member
    Messages: 139

    Maybe I don't but I know I should be paid for my snow removal services
     
  14. 98Chevy2500

    98Chevy2500 Senior Member
    Messages: 147

    Salt doesn't hurt concrete, unless its been on a yearlong diet getting real hungry. Junk mix or poor finishing practices causes the flaking. Salt it heavy and get it dry before refreeze at nightfall. We've poured plenty of concrete during the winter, got salted before 28 days cure, and still didn't flake. Heck, I poured a dump pad in front of our salt bin 5 years ago, during a pouring rain, the week of thanksgiving, received deliveries a week later, and still looks like new despite a few hairlines since I was too cheap to add steel. Not a single pop.
     
  15. BUFF

    BUFF PlowSite Fanatic
    from FR NoCo
    Messages: 7,321

    I've been told the same thing by a couple different Concrete guys and it why I use pepper instead.....
     
  16. 98Chevy2500

    98Chevy2500 Senior Member
    Messages: 147

    Salt does not make concrete flake, and concrete never stops curing. 100 year old concrete is still curing as long as moisture is present.
     
  17. Mark Oomkes

    Mark Oomkes PlowSite Fanatic
    Messages: 10,920

    Never said you shouldn't be.

    Properly mixed, air-entrained, properly prepped and installed concrete will not flake. Either you ordered crap or the readi-mix plant gave you crap. It doesn't have to be sealed either.

    http://grgravel.com/

    Call them, that's the readi-mix company I was referring to above. Been around since 1920 so I'm thinking they probably know what they're talking aboot.
     
    Last edited: Apr 9, 2016
  18. datank450

    datank450 Senior Member
    Messages: 139

    Well I just poured and finished the concrete as I do with every other job. Bad finishing practices my ass! That's the only concrete that's flaked on me and I been finishing for 15 years. I do know I was about 98 degrees that day, and heat isn't good for concrete like the cold.
     
  19. 98Chevy2500

    98Chevy2500 Senior Member
    Messages: 147

    Air entrained can go both ways.....millions of yards of concrete was poured for many years before AE came about, it all looks fine to this day.
     
  20. datank450

    datank450 Senior Member
    Messages: 139

    I'm just wandering if they were able to legally withhold payment because of this. I don't know why it flaked, I just finished the concrete and try to not add too much water. I pour on about a 4"-5" slump.