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New Truck Springs, Lifted Subframe, Different Attack Angle: Opinions?

Discussion in 'Commercial Snow Removal' started by oldmankent, Jan 19, 2004.

  1. oldmankent

    oldmankent PlowSite.com Addict
    Messages: 1,318

    I need some opinions guys. I have new front springs on my truck. They lifted the front end about 2"- 2 1/2". The snoway installation instructions say that the bottom pins in the subframe should be 11"-12" off the ground. When I originally installed the subframe with the old sagged out front springs the pins ended up being about 12.5"-13" off the ground. No problem. Now though, the pins are higher off the ground due to the new springs. They are in fact too high, because when I lower the plow the attack angle is too steep. The A-frame does not lie level with the plow down, but angles down. When I go over certain humps and dips the plow lift cylinder will bottom out and the blade will lift off the ground. I am not sure what to do about this problem, although I can think of two options. One, put in a wider cutting edge to add a couple of inches of height to the plow. Two, modify the subframe to drop it down a couple of inches. That is something I don't want to do, since it is pretty involved. I'm leaning towards the wider cutting edge, although I like to run a poly edge, and I don't know if one is made wide enough, or if the extra width would put too much leverage on the plow frame and bend something. Has anyone had to do something like this to their plow, or does anyone have any other options they might add? Much appreciated, Nick.

    Oh, the subframe is adjusted as low as it can go.
    I'll try to get some pics of this. It will be easier to understand.
     
    Last edited: Jan 19, 2004
  2. oldmankent

    oldmankent PlowSite.com Addict
    Messages: 1,318

    Here's a pic of the attack angle. You can sort of tell how the power pack is angled down. I have to admit it doesn't look that bad right now, but the blade has a brand new cutting edge on it. It loses about 2 inches when I put my poly edge on it, and the angle becomes worse. I've been thinking about building up the bottom of the plow blade to make it stronger, and bolting my poly edge to the steel edge to gain a couple of inches. Still trying to figure it all out.

    sscn1278.jpg
     
  3. Plow Meister

    Plow Meister PlowSite.com Addict
    Messages: 1,174

    Did you install a complete lift or just add 2" helper springs?

    If you installed the lift...
    I wouldn't change the length of the cutting edge. That will change the geometry of your trip spring action. Your plow will trip a lot easier. Plus, the added weight isn't a great idea either. If you insist on keeping the lift, lower the mount accordingly.


    If you just have the 2" helper springs...
    Take the springs out and install Timbrens. I know that is hard to hear but I know more about the front suspension of your truck than F*** did when they built it. When you installed the springs, did you have an allignment done to correct the camber issue? Believe me, I went down the same road you are on now. It is so not worth the effort. Shoot me a PM and I will tell you everything you want to know about the F*** factory TTB front suspension.
     
  4. oldmankent

    oldmankent PlowSite.com Addict
    Messages: 1,318

    Plow Meister, I did the lift the right way. I had brand new springs installed that gave a 2"-2 1/2" lift in the front. I also had drop axle brackets installed to deal with the camber and alignment issue. I already have Timbrens in, and installed them last year as a temporary fix for the spring and plow problem. In the back the truck has 4.25" axle blocks instead of 2" blocks. This compensated for the 2" in the front. I went this route instead of the Dana 60 route, as I didn't want to spend the money that the Dana 60 entailed. If you have anything to add, let me know. I am concerened about the springs tripping easier, but that wouldn't be very hard to fix if the plow did trip more often. Putting the old stock springs back in and riding on the Timbrens all the time is out of the question. I am so much more happy with the ride of the truck with the new springs. Nick.
     
  5. Plow Meister

    Plow Meister PlowSite.com Addict
    Messages: 1,174

    I am truly glad you did things the right way. I had to learn the hard way.

    Is the plow like brand new? Personally, I would put a longer cutting edge on it and weld on a couple more brackets to attach a total of 4 trip springs. I think yours only has 2. The aded springs will compensate for the trip action.

    What do ya think?
     
  6. oldmankent

    oldmankent PlowSite.com Addict
    Messages: 1,318

    Yeah, I'm leaning towards elongating (sp?) the cutting edge. Only thing, where the cutting edge bolts to the plow frame seems a little weak. I had a 8' poly edge on a 7.5' blade so the edge was sticking by. When I took it off I noticed that at the corners of the blade the steel was bent back a bit. I believe that this mainly is from the extra leverage of the edge sticking by the plow blade, but with a longer edge overall I'm worried about the whole thing bending back. I'd like to weld some steel into place to tie the back bend to the front bend, and then even support the cutting edge lower down so I can bolt another cutting edge to it and not have to worry about leverage problems bending the cutting edge back when the plow trips. Hopefully this pic will help ya out visualizing this thing.

    sscn1282.jpg
     
  7. Plow Meister

    Plow Meister PlowSite.com Addict
    Messages: 1,174

    Well, you would be effectively adding 2" to your cutting edge.

    As far as welding steel to where the cutting edge mounts to the mold board, that seems a bit much. The more I look at it, I don't think that will make much difference.

    If anything, go 2" down and 2" up. Bolt the new cutting edge in the same spots AND higher up. This will keep the cutting edge from bending forward from too much pressure or if you hit an obstical.

    As far as the corners bending back, that's gonna happen when you hit curbs and such. With an 8' cutting edge attached to a 7 1/2' blade, you have 3" of edge hanging out that just begs to get jacked up. Also, get some more trip springs on there

    One more thing... Get rid of those plow shoes. They are worthless.
     
  8. oldmankent

    oldmankent PlowSite.com Addict
    Messages: 1,318

    thanks for the input man. The shoes are hanging in the air. I leave them on just in case some weird situation allows the blade to dig in and not trip hopefully these will keep the blade from digging in anymore.
     
  9. mylawn03

    mylawn03 Senior Member
    Messages: 229

    Smaller tires maybe???
     
  10. streetsurfin'

    streetsurfin' Senior Member
    Messages: 770

    Do you keep any extra weight in the bed for plowing? I wondered if shifting it to the front of the bed might bring the front down a bit. Looking at your truck in the other thread(which is very nice by the way) it doesn't seem to drop more than an inch with the plow up. I know I can make a difference with mine but its a 150 and not an extended cab.
     
  11. oldmankent

    oldmankent PlowSite.com Addict
    Messages: 1,318

    streetsurfin, I really don't want to get more weight to the front of the truck, because I don't want to go over the front GAWR more than I have to. My truck has about 800 lbs of tools in the back all the time, plus the cap and rack are probably another 500 lbs. I think I'm doing pretty well in terms of ballast weight etc. I don't think putting more weight in the front of the bed would bring the front down enough anyway to make much of a difference. I still think I'm going to do something with the cutting edge to make it longer. Major problem is I like to run a poly edge, but I doubt I can get one in a 10" width. That's why I'm leaning towards welding some sort of extension on.
     
  12. Plow Meister

    Plow Meister PlowSite.com Addict
    Messages: 1,174

    Well, don't weld the extention on. Use a piece of steel bolted to the original bolt holes to get the added length. Then, bolt on the poly cutting edge. I am not a big fan of welding on a nearly new blade unless it is already tore up.
     
  13. oldmankent

    oldmankent PlowSite.com Addict
    Messages: 1,318

    I'm worried that the front bent bolt tab where the first cutting edge is bolted on will bend over with an additional 2-3" of cutting edge. That's why I'm leaning towards welding an additional support to strengthen it. You think the steel tab will be fine, and won't bend over with the additional leverage?
     
  14. Plow Meister

    Plow Meister PlowSite.com Addict
    Messages: 1,174

    I totally see where you are coming from. Yes, that could pose a threat. However, I think if the longer cutting edge system is bolted in correctly I doubt there will be any problems with that U bottom. I do see the possibility, but the possibility is low. If you have a welder and some scrap, go for it. All it will cost you is some wire and scrap. Just make sure to prime and paint the pi$$ out of the welds. Rust city there.
     
  15. oldmankent

    oldmankent PlowSite.com Addict
    Messages: 1,318

    What I was actually thinking of was designing an extension that tied the front and rear tabs together and extended down farther, thus providing support to the back of the cutting edge farther down. This would work well for pushing snow, but wouldn't provide a stitch of additional support while backdragging.
     
  16. Plow Meister

    Plow Meister PlowSite.com Addict
    Messages: 1,174

    Like, weld a plate from the back of the U to the bottom of the existing cutting edge. Then, bolt a new Urethane edge to the existing cutting edge Thus, giving you the 3" of drop you need and still maintaining the blade integrity. I like it. I think it will work. Make sure you post lots of pics so we can see your progress.