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my truck

Discussion in 'Commercial Snow Removal' started by plowking35, Mar 1, 2000.

  1. plowking35

    plowking35 2000 Club Member
    from SE CT
    Messages: 2,923

    Ok John asked, and I will tell. The other thread is getting long, so I thought I would start another one.<br>First with out beating a dead horse. THE NEW DURAMAX DIESEL IS 100% AMERICAN MADE PARTS AND LABOR. It will be made here, and was designed here. Isuzu engineers had input, and probably alot of input, but the final product is american. Most vehicles today are a global project, and I applaud gm for designing a cutting edge engine. Isuzu has been making aluminum head engines for years, used in extreme conditions with excellent results. i believe they will hold up fine.<br>Now for my truck, here are the specs<br>1998 k-3500 4x4 cab chassis, long wheel base, 6.5 diesel, auto,ac,cruise, tilt,cheyanne package.<br>I payed $ 24,700 for the truck. i added a l pack tool box which was $ 2000.00 and $ 4000.00 for the dump body and hoist assembly.<br>the truck was out the door for $ 31000 plus tax. With my trade I financed $ 30,500 for 5 yrs @ 5.9% with a monthly payment of about $ 580.00<br>the next nearest price was 27,700 from a gmc dealer, I bought from a commercial dealer, who worked on salary not commision, so he sold it to me for 500 over their cost, plus the 3% hold back that all dealers make. The truck came from a chassis pool, and I saw it for the first time, 2 weeks after I made my first payment. Aside from a pitman arm the truck has been flawless.<br>The closest price on a comparable ford or dodge was 35,700.<br>I also dont think that when you buy a new truck you should have to drop 600 big ones on a tranny upgrade. Either put the right tranny in it or DONT SELL IT.<br>We will see in 2002 when dodge gets the allison T-1000. Now when you buy a dodge with a ford owned engine maker, a gm owned tranny maker, and a ford owned axel co, you wont be able to complain about a isuzu engineered engine. Who makes that didge truck anyway? The competition makes more of the truck then dodge does. Now if only cummins would allow a real truck co to have the engine, ummmmmmmm<br>Try this one on for size.<br>the 6.2 and 6.5 has been and always will be a true diesel engine. While the 6.9 started life as a gas engine. Just a thought.<br>Also with out GM and the 6.2 being an option in the early 80's there may not be a diesel engine market today. So all hail GM for starting the diesel market.<br>Dino <p>----------<br> Professional Ice and Snow Management <br>Products:Services:Equipment www.sima.org
     
  2. GeoffD

    GeoffD PlowSite.com Veteran
    Messages: 2,266

    Ford built a 6.9 diesel a long time ago. It was one big pile of sh!t. Is that the engine that started as a gas engine? Or are ya talking about the cummings 5.9? <p>Like i said i think that new chevy will be a great truck for you chevy guys.<p>If dodge is adding an alison trans with diesel, and chevy is, it i bet Ford has it in the works.<p>When it comes to truck building it's gets even weirder. OK<br>Ford Used to build the Stearling line of trucks (the old L-series and aero-max ford's commercial market) They sold their commercial market share to Freightline. Who is owned by Dimeler ( if i spelled that right) who also owns dodge and all it's other brands. So now the same company that owns the maker of the ram, all produces the Ford Commercial Line that was left almost unchanged. <p>Geoff<br>
     
  3. plowking35

    plowking35 2000 Club Member
    from SE CT
    Messages: 2,923

    The 6.9 international started as a gas engine, and the 7.3 was a dirivitive of the 6.9, thus the PS started out as a gas engine.<br>The cummins always has been a diesel.<br>0k the cummins that is offered in the 650 is a 5.9 liter that is the same as the dodge offers. <br>I think you need to check cummins, Ford bought back in the late 90's.<br> <br>Dino<p>----------<br> Professional Ice and Snow Management <br>Products:Services:Equipment www.sima.org<br>
     
  4. paul

    paul PlowSite.com Veteran
    Messages: 151

    Boy this is getting deep :)<br>Anyways Ford does not own Cummins they owned a 20% share in the early 90s then sold it. <br>Next Navastar (formerly IH) builds the 7.3 for Ford, You can still get a 6.9 Cummins in the Ford 650 and up class also CAT motors are offered in the same line.<br>Transmissions<br>Alison owned by GM, GM never saw the need for a small diesel transmission untill Ford and Dodge started putting the higher torque motors in their pickup, they had a transmission that would have worked but not many people wanted to shift a auto trans and it had no parking brake feature. Allison sell their transmission to all truck makers, Ford in their F650 and up class,Mack, Freightliner, Peterbuilt, ect. Most larger trucks are custom order, you pick the spring, the axles,the suspension, transmission, the motor, plus all the goodies, sometimes its like going to the smorgasboard you get a little of this a little of that soon you have a truck.<br>Now the big question are the prices too high?<p>----------<br>paul<br>
     
  5. GeoffD

    GeoffD PlowSite.com Veteran
    Messages: 2,266

    It a Cummings 5.9 in the F 650 not a 6.9. Also the last i heard Ford now owns 100% of cummings, i thought they bought them out in sept or oct of 99.<p>I also have a F 650 with the cat 3126 B and an allison auto trans. So go figure<p>Geoff<br>
     
  6. plowking35

    plowking35 2000 Club Member
    from SE CT
    Messages: 2,923

    Geoff you rock, thanks for getting my back.<br>Dino
     
  7. John DiMartino

    John DiMartino PlowSite.com Veteran
    Messages: 2,154

    Dino,the stocker is ok for stock motors.I'm was a GM man remember.I chose the right truck for me,and 600 is nothing compared to what I would have had to do to a 6.5 to get it to run like mine did stock,and I worked on 6.5's as well,so I know about their high failure rate including head gaskets and broken head bolts.To hop that motor up you need to throw it away and start with the marine motor,then add mechanical pump (which is prohibited by law on 94 and newer) that is why Jim B's truck is an 89.Then add an intercooler and hop up trans anyway,radiator is too small,new exhaustAfter that waste of money it will still get smoked by a Cummins with a 275 dollar torque plate and a walker muffler I'm glad you like yours and GM makes in my opinion the most reliable truck,but there was no Cummins option or a Cat either.I didn't want a slow diesel and I have hotrodded everything I own,so that is why 600 was a good deal for me.Add the fact that I bought it 2 years old for 4500 under book,and Dodge diesels get book + around here,a Xcab 2500 LB is impossible to find used and clean.I might've been driving a 6.5 if I got a good enough deal,but I'd need to hop it up so I'll have to add that to the budget.Dont beat the dead horse anymore,I know as much about the new engine as you,I surf to 62-65 page.I just wont buy one,go ahead and get inline.If a Cat,yes.Isuzu is world leader in little smokey 3.9 NPR's and in europe with little 3.1's.The leader in real diesels(the ones we use above 200HP)is Cummins.Have you ever been behind an NPR?They belch smoke and cant get out of there own way.Ironic that emmisions are whats holding up the D-max,I'm not surprised at all.I know it doing well in testing,but I have this thing about them and I doubt anyone south of Maryland (rednecks)will buy one either.If it were a joint venture with CAT it would say CAT on the fender,with Isuzu they hide the name under the D-max badge.I may be weird but I'll pass,BTW Ford doesn't own any part of Cummins.<p>----------<br>John D<br>
     
  8. John DiMartino

    John DiMartino PlowSite.com Veteran
    Messages: 2,154

    The 5.9 in the F650 is a higher torque version of the one in my 2500.It's a good engine for a local truck or rental.Geoff,where did you get info on who owns Cummins?I have stock in them and to my knowledge Ford appears nowhere on there as stockholders.Dino Dodge built my truck in St Louis,with an engine from columbus, ohio and with axles from Dana and case from NV gear in syracuse NY.Your motor didnt get built with the truck either.It was built under license from Detriot Diesel,cheapened so much that they wouldn't let GM put the name DD on it and sent to you with thin wall castings that will leave you wishing you had gone with the 350 if you get it too hot.BTw the low boost is to keep the headgaskets from blowing out the sides as well as the crank from coming through the pan.LOL I'm having fun with this, Im not trying to aggravate you.Dino,I'm ready to ty an edge,Ill E you private.<p>----------<br>John D<br>
     
  9. GeoffD

    GeoffD PlowSite.com Veteran
    Messages: 2,266

    Well John i can be wrong.<p>I got my info from a friend so it's not an official source. <p>Only i do find that it's possible for Ford too own cummings.<p>The reasons:<br>Why would you want 3 engines on the 650/750 platform ( ever heard of value engineering?)<p>Why not use two cat motors to have somethine equal to the 5.9 cummings<p>Or have international build a motor like the cummings.<p>Ford has a diesel avaible in the rangers sold outside of north america. ( 2.0 or 2.5 i think. someone other than Ford must be building this enginer)<p>The point i am trying to make is that if ford didn't own cummings they probably wouldn't be useing their motor, i think they would probably contract cat or internation to build them another motor or use one of cat's or international's other motors.<p>Sorry for the unofficial source.<p>Geoff<br>
     
  10. plowking35

    plowking35 2000 Club Member
    from SE CT
    Messages: 2,923

    Well if you were to take the difference between the cost of my 6.5 and the PS or cummins new. ANd added that to my 6.5 we would have comparable engines. Now that being said I dont think that you should have to do that. GM is definitly behind in diesel tech. However you are wrong about the emissions. Dodge and Ford actually are the ones behind in emissions. They are reworking their diesels to meet the stricter guidlines for up to 10000gvw. the new duramax is also tune able. When you read about the tech that will be in the duramax it is mind blowing. It will be a nitemare to work on and diagnose. But when it all works together it should be amazing. Every once in awhile gm does something right, maybe this will be it. I mean it even has a fuel cooler to help atomise the fuel better. But more sensors and computers than you can shake a stick at.<br>I just hate to see a product beat down before it is even out. And I was pretty sure that all ext cab dodges came from mexico, then sent to St Luis for drivetrain.<br>Heres something else to think about, Ford is looking into buying penske, which owns detriot diesel. Now that is weird.<br>I do believe that ford owns cummins, I will look into it, I am rarley wrong about these things. The big rumor was that since ford owned cummins, they would put that 5.9 into the sd. that was wrong, but you can see why it was believable if ford did own cummins.<br>Dino <p>----------<br> Professional Ice and Snow Management <br>Products:Services:Equipment www.sima.org
     
  11. DaveO

    DaveO PlowSite.com Veteran
    from Ma.
    Messages: 299

    WOW!!!<p>The amount of knowledge that the people on this forum have never ceases to amaze me. I'm impressed!!!<p>As to the diesel opinions, yes I have one also....<p>I have driven and plowed with both the new 'stroker' and gmc diesels. I have not driven a Cummins, 24 or 12 valve motor.<p>I drove a 98 2500 chevy with the 6.5 to Daytona pulling a 24 box with 9 bikes in it. Weighed about 7500lbs. The Chevy pulled it fine, no problems. Had sufficient power. The engine is very civilized, quiet and smooth. Almost can't tell it's a diesel. The milage was a dissappointment, averaged about 9-10mpg going 80mph, expected a little more. I am unsure of the long term durability of it, only because I don't know anyone with high miles on one.<p>Drove/plowed with a 99 F350 with the 7.3. Strong truck, motor was noisy, especially off idle. Not as bad cruisin down the hiway. Seems like you give it a little throttle and not much response, give a little more and same thing, then give a hair more and you hear the turbo spool and here comes the ponys. Expected more down low from it. I do know several people with 200K+ miles on 7.3's with no problems.<p>As for the 5.9 Cummins, like I said before I have not driven one yet. Everyone I have talked to who owns them loves them. One person owns an RV center, he has had five of them. The lowest milage is 235K, all he buys are sticks, no auto's. The motor appears to be very stout.<p>Will the new Duramax steal the show?? Only time will tell. I give credit to GMC to taking the next step, but they had to IMO. The aluminum heads don't concern me, I have worked on many engines with them. If designed correctly they are only an asset. Less weight and better thermal transfer. Concerns I have about the Duramax? The advertised specs show the power peaks higher in the RPM range than the 7.3 or 5.9. Does this mean the power curve is biased higher up? I like having the low end. Also they quote 200K before major engine concerns, Cummins quotes 400K on their web site. I don't know what Navistar claims. If they 'only' expect 200K from this engine, it had better not be an expensive option. And add to this GM's history with engine management systems, as Dino said, I'd wait until the 2nd or 3rd year. I personally do hope they succeed. Everyone will benefit.<p>Dave <br>
     
  12. Lazer

    Lazer Senior Member
    Messages: 399

    I think the DuraMax and Cummins 5.9 are both diesels and that's about the only simalarity.<p>The Duramax is supposed to drive more like a gas. Quick power, high rpms, shorter life.<p>The 5.9 Cummins is a mid-size truck engine and drives like one. It's longevity will not be matched my the Duramax.
     
  13. thelawnguy

    thelawnguy PlowSite.com Addict
    Messages: 1,011

    Ford owns a small percentage of Cummins stock, but I wouldnt consider Cummins a Ford subsidiary. Just like I wouldnt consider GM a lawnguy subsidiary just because I own some stock.<p>Look under that Ford at that Dana axle, Dana is owned by DaimlerChrysler.<p>Anyone with a New Venture tranny or xfer case in their truck is driving with a product made by a joint Chrysler/GM plant.<p>That Freightliner is actually an overgrown Dodge, heck if you want a gas engine in a freightliner you get the dodge v10.<p>My Dodge pickup has Delco brakes, same as the Chevys.<p>There is practically no vehicle left out there that doesnt share some component with another manufacturer.<p>Bill
     
  14. John DiMartino

    John DiMartino PlowSite.com Veteran
    Messages: 2,154

    Dino,EXcabs are made in St louis and mexico.From what I heard on the TDR roundtable,the mexican trucks are better built and have been made there since 1937.Geoff,the 5.9 Cummins is unmatched for strenth,durability and cost at that displacement.I think Yanmar,and someone else makes one as good,but it has a marine version only and costs more with a shorter life cycle.The Cat is a great motor,but costs more and wont outlive the Cummins.It sure will outpower it though.I know of several in Rams with 600,000 to 1.200,000 miles on them without ever being torn down.They seem get tired and use a little oil aroun 7-900,000 but it's not a lot and power is still great.Engine life rated at 400k is average at 66000 lbs.How much weight is D-max pulling when it is rated at 200K?BTW PSD rated for 125K emmision system life,200K engine life,at 33000 lbs.It is a light duty engine as rated by EPA based on size,engine life,etc..Cummins is only true med duty in a P/u as rated by EPA.It has a 185K emmisions life.The guys at Banks told me that my motor will outlast 3 PSD's and about 5 6.5's,I dont know if it's true but that has been there experience doing power kits and such.Lazer is right,this is a truck engine,it's loud and pulls hard down low and is smooth as glass to redline.The 6.5 does a great job of playing a gas motor,with a great torque curve and drivability.<p>----------<br>John D<br>
     
  15. DaveO

    DaveO PlowSite.com Veteran
    from Ma.
    Messages: 299

    This straight from blueovalnews.com(FORD). Seems the 7.3 as we know it will be discontinued, replaced by this....<p>The new 6.0L Powerstroke will be lighter, have both more horsepower, torque and will be able to pull heavier loads than the current 7.3L. The big surprise is how much smaller the new engine's displacement will be - a 6.0L Navistar. The new 800lb. 6.0L will be a 90-degree engine that one Ford engineer on the project said will be far superior to the 1,010lb. 7.3L version it replaces. <p> <p>Ford expects to sell 425,000 6.0L Powerstroke diesels, which will only be available in vehicles with a GVW of more than 8,500lbs. By Ford's own internal documents, those vehicles include: Excursion, Econoline and SuperDuty F-Series trucks. Consumers who want a diesel engine in a truck under 8,500lbs. can opt for Ford's all new 4.5L V6 Navistar &lt;more&gt;. Ford's documents claim &quot;Over 8,500lb. market is established and growing&quot; - but the Federal government's TierII proposal will most likely force this class of vehicles to obtain the same emissions output as cars. <p> <p>Ford's new 6.0L Powerstroke is certain to be a huge homerun. It will generate 70 more bone crushing horsepower than the 7.3L and 50 more foot pounds of spine twisting torque. It will be able to tow 14,000lbs., 500lbs. more than the 7.3L. The payload remains unchanged at 4,644lbs. According to the internal documents, Ford does not plan to upgrade the payload capacity of the next generation SuperDuty F-Series. <p> <p>The 6.0L will be able to accelerate from 0-60mph in 9.7 seconds compared to the 7.3L's 12.5 second time. The big news is the saving the 6.0L engine will have on fleet operators. The 6.0L will achieve 19.0 miles per gallon while the 7.3L current gets only 18.4. At a steady 70mph, the 6.0L can muster 19.0 miles per gallon, up from the 7.3L's 18.4. That equates into big yearly fuel savings for fleet owners. The 6.0L engine will also emit fewer toxic emissions as well. <p>The future is looking bright for Ford's Powerstroke diesel engine program - so sit back and smile - you'll still be able to put a hurtin' on GM and Dodge.<p> <p>For comparison purposes, we'll examine both the 7.3L and 6.0L attributes.<p>Engine Specifications *7.3L diesel 6.0L diesel<p><br>MAX sae net horsepower 235@2700rpm 305@3600rpm<br> <br>MAX sae net torque 500@1600rpm 550@2000rpm<br> <br>MAX sae net torque 485-490 @1500rpm 480-520 @ 1500 rpm<br> <br>General Specifications *<p>0-60mph time, WOT<br> 7.3L diesel 12.5 seconds<br> 6.0L diesel 9.7 seconds<br> <br>This is straight from Ford....<p>John, good info on the engine categories...Do you work for Chrysler?...LOL<p>Dave<p> <br> <p> <p><p><p><br>
     
  16. John DiMartino

    John DiMartino PlowSite.com Veteran
    Messages: 2,154

    Dave,I worked for Chrysler for a year,in 1990.My dealer took on then new Hyundai,and wanted me switch to those,they sent me to school and all,but they reamed me with wrong flat rate times and unpaid claims,and they didn't like me taking snow days off to plow,even though we agreed to it at time I was hired.I left on good terms and am still good friends with the manager who makes my warranty work painless and easy,another reason I went Dodge.Until,Daimer took over Mopar had the best warranty there was,They would routinely pay claims for engines out of warranty by 5000+miles or a year.It sold me on their product,even though I dont think it's the best.<p>----------<br>John D<br>
     
  17. SLSNursery

    SLSNursery PlowSite.com Veteran
    Messages: 140

    Well - I was getting anxious for spring, so I tested out a Sterling with a big Detroit Diesel in it (400+ HP). I'm going to put together a 10 wheeler or tri-axle flatbed dump with a three wheel forklift on the back. The test drive got me excited, but, Paul, the sticker made me puke - 84K for C&C no drop axle or body. Anyone with advice out there?<p>Now, back to reality. I have a few Powerstrokes and am very happy. I also have an F-800 with a 5.9 cummings in it with a 6 speed. Almost none of the components are Ford. This truck has power like crazy compared to the smaller ones. There is a world of difference between the pickup sized trucks and the medium sized ones. After sitting in the Sterling, it made the 5.9 seem like a weedwacker engine. I guess my point is that I always try to have more engine than truck, so I won't get stuck. We always seem to load the trucks, so I rely on the power. But I find that keeping body sizes in check (not putting 12' dumps on F-350s) and leaving the trucks alone seems to work the best overall. Since we have a supply yard, I see guys overload small underpowered trucks all day long. Later, I consistently see those trucks getting fixed. Well, I rambling again, but this always happens after a visit to the Fordliner Sterling Isuzu dealer.<br><p>----------<br>Phil Grande - Soundview Landscape Supply - http://members.aol.com/slsnursery<br>Ivy League Landscaping - http://members.aol.com/scagrider
     
  18. John DiMartino

    John DiMartino PlowSite.com Veteran
    Messages: 2,154

    Phil,my truck has more power than your bid Ford now,Chrysler cut back fuel on the Cummins to keep from ripping itself out of the light duty chassis and shreading the trans.I turned it up,and so have lots of others,and with sane driving techniques they hold up well.I stopped at 250HP,but if I get a tighter TConvertor,I can trade my plate for a 330hp/850ft-lb,for $45 dollars,but I'm afraid to grenade the trans input shaft.The 5.9 is baby next to that series 60! 12.7 liters,and you can uprate to 550HP with ease.That is a great motor, a little noisey next to smooth quiet,$$$ 3406 CAT,but a better value.When my Bro bought his DD was giving a $5000 rebate if you bought the 60 series over CAT or N14 Cummins,do they still do this?<p>----------<br>John D<br>
     
  19. bdemir

    bdemir Member
    Messages: 89

    I know i have no place here but i just want to list the specs.<br>Toyotas new 4.7 liter delivers 245 hp @ 4800<br>and 315lbs. ft. trque @ 3400. Now look at the size of this engine and look at the torque and horsepower and its not a diesel. and its more reliable than any of the big threes. will outlast them too and 0 to 60 is faster than a silverado. I know its not a big tuck but look at its size and weight then look at its torque. Today they build big engines like the ones you guys discuss,even for buses and deisels too, but for some reason they are not in america. I wish they were. i dont have a problem with foreign made products id rather have relaiblity.<br>
     
  20. John DiMartino

    John DiMartino PlowSite.com Veteran
    Messages: 2,154

    dbimer,the problem with the toy is that it is nt up to heavy use including towing.Look in trailer boats magazine,they did a test this summer on one and it ran great with no load,it was a quick truck,and smooth.Put a 5000 lb trailer behind it and it wasn't the same truck.The 4.7 is not happy below 3200 with load and the trans is always kicking down to find lower gear.The Rpms have to be kept high and that doesnt promote long lfe,or good fuel economy.On paper it looks like enough torque,but real world testing shows that if a lot of towing is in store,buy american of sream it's heart out.Any of the Big 3 fullsize V8's would yank 5k like nothing with base V8,and for same price as Toyota.Look on jobsites around the country,I see Fords,Chevys and Dodge.The only imports are cabover box trucks and they are city trucks grossly underpowered for urban or interstate use.I dont consider the Toy a fullsize truck,it looks like a mini next to my Ram,especially the interior.It is a nice truck if you need a daily driver and do yard work on weekends,just not commercial use yet,maybe soon they'll step up with real competition for Big 3.