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Meyers E47 foaming oil/blowing out vent

Discussion in 'Residential Snow Removal' started by merkurfan, Feb 25, 2014.

  1. merkurfan

    merkurfan Junior Member
    Messages: 13

    Truck history.. None. I bought it form a charity as is. Plow is a e47 on a 1980 Ford Bronco.

    Issue, foaming oil. Lots of it. Found two almost empty quarts of plow oil in the back of the truck. probably an ongoing issue or the twist rams use to leak. Rams also look new. no rust and no damage. labels have that off the shelf look to them still.


    Repairs attempted. Replaced all seals in pump unit. inspected for cracks. Did not open pump it's self. Just lift ram, reservoir and solenoid block. Fairly clean inside, no rusty parts at all. old oil was green and clean. I might not have been the first one in it recently. Replaced leaking lift ram o-ring and wiper.

    It was working fairly well last night (+5 degrees) but was still producing a small amount of foamy oil from the vent. I figured it was still burping the air since I just did the seals yesterday.

    This morning, its much colder. -10 out. Put it through it's motions on a jack to see if it was still working right before I actually had to use it. Oil faithful erupted from the vent. I am leaning towards the pump getting air in to it from somewhere but before I start spending big bucks I thought I'd ask. Google produced people with the same problem but no apparent fix.

    Oil used is plow oil from fleet farm. Suppose to be pour-able to -75.
     
  2. leolkfrm

    leolkfrm PlowSite.com Addict
    Messages: 1,403

    green oil?..thought theirs was blue....I would try some meyer oil..

    are you over filling it?
     
  3. merkurfan

    merkurfan Junior Member
    Messages: 13

    meyers is blue. when I re-sealed it I used meyers spec oil. it's now blue.
     
  4. leolkfrm

    leolkfrm PlowSite.com Addict
    Messages: 1,403

    with the ram all the way down the oil level should be down @3/4 of an inch
     
  5. merkurfan

    merkurfan Junior Member
    Messages: 13

    last night it was about 1 inch below the top.
     
  6. leolkfrm

    leolkfrm PlowSite.com Addict
    Messages: 1,403

    and you pushed the ram to the bottom?
     
  7. merkurfan

    merkurfan Junior Member
    Messages: 13

    Yes. all the way till it bottomed out.
     
  8. leolkfrm

    leolkfrm PlowSite.com Addict
    Messages: 1,403

    just checked my manual should be down 1 1/2 with ram collapsed....

    does it stutter when moving left to right? also indicates air

    I'm sure someone will jump in later with more knowledge
     
  9. merkurfan

    merkurfan Junior Member
    Messages: 13

    No, it's smooth. however once in a while, there is a delay where you here the pump run, then it starts moving. but once it starts moving, I can stop and restart with no problem.

    This leads be to think there is still some air in the system.
     
  10. jasonv

    jasonv PlowSite.com Addict
    from kannada
    Messages: 1,114

    No, this is not because there is "air in the system". The pump inlet is directly from the bottom of the reservoir.

    However, foamy oil means that there is air *getting in* to the pump somehow. In my experience, this is *usually* because the intake screen (at the bottom of the reservoir) is plugged.... There are a number of things that usually plug up the intake screen... ice is the most common, however, you've changed the fluid, so this is probably not likely... unless there is severe contamination in, for example, the angle cylinders (its been known to happen). You can try adding a tablespoon or two of GAS LINE ANTIFREEZE, and see if that cures the problem. The second thing that can plug up the inlet screen is FUZZ. This is usually from hydraulic cylinder packing. If you take the screen out, it should be a clean metal screen. If you find fuzz, clean the screen, and try to figure out which of the cylinders is in need of a rebuild. If you're in doubt, ALL THREE. It is also very slightly possible that fuzz could be from a hydraulic HOSE that is decaying from the inside out. Hoses are cheap and easy to replace, but if you replace it, spend a few extra $$ and replace them with STEEL BRAIDED REINFORCEMENT, not nylon. The price difference is small, the hoses are vastly superior.


    Now if it isn't the inlet screen, then you could have some other problems;
    1) The seal (o-ring) between the reservoir and the pump, specifically, the inlet (vacuum) port. You've had this apart, so you will know if the mating surface was smooth and clean or rough. If it was a rough surface, you can bring it to a machine shop to be resurfaced, then the o-ring should be able to seal against it again.
    2) The pump shaft seal. Basically, when you take the motor off the pump, you should be able to see the actual pump shaft stub sticking up a little bit. If the seal on that shaft isn't good against the shaft itself, then that will allow air to be sucked into the system. Take the pump apart, it is a simple gear pump -- very easy to take apart and put back together, don't be afraid of it. Inspect the bushings -- if they are worn out, they will let the pump shaft press against the seal and let air in. Inspect the shaft that it is perfectly smooth where it mates with the seal, otherwise it will allow air in. Replace the seal, if it is worn out, it will let air in.
    3) A crack in the reservoir base intersecting with the supply circuit.
    4) A crack in the pump housing.
    5) A damaged pump housing main gasket or loose bolts holding the pump housing together.

    Now the crazy and stupid part of the meyer service manual, is that they don't even TOUCH on the pump itself. Even though it is easy to take apart and put back together, they pretend like it is a single solid unservicable unit.... so if you want parts for it, you may have to go to more... generic... sources.
     
  11. basher

    basher PlowSite Fanatic
    from 19707
    Messages: 8,992

    But does it have the anti-foam agents that the premium plow fluids have???:nono:

    Rip the unit back apart, clean the tractor fluid out of it, while you're in there throw that suction screen in the trash, Meyer says remove them, they only cause issues, the front filters will handle the filtration needs. Once you get that fluid cleaned out of the system reassemble and fill with a premium plow fluid. Should solve your problems.

    Be sure when you refill it to have the blade angled to one side, and to angle it all the way once then check the level of the fluid and angle completely the other direction. Don't forget to install new nylock washers on the cap bolts, reusing the old ones NEVER works well.
     
    Last edited: Feb 26, 2014
  12. merkurfan

    merkurfan Junior Member
    Messages: 13

    The oil is made for plows and meets Meyers specs. It is NOT tractor oil. Its made by sams. I already tossed the suction screen.
     
  13. basher

    basher PlowSite Fanatic
    from 19707
    Messages: 8,992

    I know all about S.A.M. fluid, IMO change it.
     
  14. merkurfan

    merkurfan Junior Member
    Messages: 13


    I am leaning twards the pump. When I had the rest of the unit apart putting in new seals I removed the inlet screen per meyers saying it was ok and tossed it. The inside of the tank and lift ram looked new. No rust at all. Oil that I removed from it also looked good.

    I'll have to look in to parts for the pump as buying a couple of seals or bushings for it sounds much cheaper than 150-250 for the pump.

    1) looked new. I put a new seal in
    2) there was some oil in there, but it also looks like there is a vent on the top of my motor (non-oe) and when it foams out of the tank, it hits the top of the motor... perhaps that oil is not coming from the upper vent.
    3-4) did not see any cracks during my cleaning/inspection/reseal
    5) I didn't touch the actual pump. I figured the seal kit was a cheaper route to try first and the lift ram was leaking so it needed to be done. This area is definitely worth a revisit.

    After looking around, and thinking about the oil on top of the pump shaft.. I am going to replace the pump shaft seal and see how that does for me. I just removed the pump motor and there is oil in there again. I don't think it's coming down from the top of the pump motor because looking more closely at it. The motor is dryer than a popcorn fart. So my guess is that oil is coming from the seal.
     
    Last edited: Feb 26, 2014
  15. merkurfan

    merkurfan Junior Member
    Messages: 13



    I'll put it on the list, however, as others suggested, it looks like the problem is in the pump. It's about the only thing I could see causing micro bubbles or beer head style foam. Since it does my drive way and occasionally the one on the other side of the road I can't say I am in a real hurry to drain the oil in sub zero temps right now.
     
  16. leolkfrm

    leolkfrm PlowSite.com Addict
    Messages: 1,403

    10 min to remove and carry in someplace warm the only way!...cant rebuild it with gloves on

    thanks jason...knew someone with more tech experience would chime in
     
  17. merkurfan

    merkurfan Junior Member
    Messages: 13


    I just did all the seals in it, and it is to old for a drain plug. When I do the pump seal I'll change the oil. and someone deleted the quick couplers. so I have to unscrew the fittings. It does not bother me as the truck is only here for the driveway. It was cheaper (and warmer) than buying a 4 wheeler or blower for the garden tractor.
     
  18. Whiffyspark

    Whiffyspark 2000 Club Member
    from SOMD
    Messages: 2,402

    Uh basher is one of the top techs on here. Might want to listen to him
     
  19. jasonv

    jasonv PlowSite.com Addict
    from kannada
    Messages: 1,114

    Basher's idea is useful, but not perfect. Basically, you shouldn't *need* an anti-foam agent in the hydraulic fluid. An anti-foam agent would cover up and/or mitigate the problem of air getting in, but you can't *get* foam without air somewhere getting into the system.... which can ONLY happen where I've specified. Also, I don't think that his post was a hit against basher, since basher didn't even post in this thread until AFTER I did.

    The observation of oil getting past the pump seal is actually very telling in this case. It does indicate that the the pump seal is leaking, and if that seal is leaking, that is *definitely* a source of air getting into the system. Now here is the thing... that pump seal is positioned physically lower than the fluid level in the reservoir, so when the pump is not running, gravity will actually be pushing fluid against the seal. If the seal isn't good enough to hold back GRAVITY, then it is really badly shot. Lets hope that the bushings and shaft are still good, and it can be fixed just with a new seal.
     
  20. merkurfan

    merkurfan Junior Member
    Messages: 13

    I'm guessing the bushings and shaft are not obtainable. As least my googling didn't turn anything up. I tend to be one that likes to fix it right if I can. And considering it's 30+ years old even if they have not failed now. They will soon. so if the parts are out there I'd likely order them.