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Meyer E-47 won't raise

Discussion in 'Meyer / Diamond Products Discussion' started by SnowGoJoe, Nov 15, 2009.

  1. SnowGoJoe

    SnowGoJoe Junior Member
    Messages: 10

    I've been browsing the forums here for some time, and this site is awesome. I couldn't help but join up. This rocks.

    Let me start by saying: I'm very new to this. This will be my second year of plowing (and by plowing, I mean my driveway and a few other friends' driveways and generally receive my payment in the form of a 30 pack of PBR or with free babysitting). My background is that of an Electrical Engineering Technician (Michigan Tech) and I work primarily in the IT field.

    I purchased an unknown year Meyer 7' plow and E-47 pump to fit my '93 F-150 4x4 extended bed (best $800 i have ever spent-- that was the truck. the plow was $500 and it cost $250 to have a mount welded). So far, I'm under the cost of a nice new snowblower, and I get to listen to NPR and drink coffee for 10 minutes instead of trying to find someone to watch my son for an hour and a half while I clear the drive (i'm a single dad). So, I'm pretty pleased with the way things turned out.

    The only problem I had with the setup last season was that a hydraulic angle adapter broke off on one of the angling pistons. I replaced it, bled the hose and piston, and was in good shape.

    At the end of the season, I dismounted the plow, covered it with a tarp, removed the pump from the truck and stored indoors, and kept the hoses connected to each unit. Did some cleaning to the pump since I had it indoors (no inside cleaning, just outside de-gunking, etc).

    In preparation for winter, I put the pump back on the truck. When I attempted to raise the piston (wanted to check it before I went to attach the nice heavy plow) I got nothing more than a loud CLICK from the relay under the hood.

    Since I didn't have much literature to start troubleshooting, I started to explore the pump. What I found is that the coils labeled B and C, well, if they're not broken, DO NOT remove that nut. Cuz if it's rusted to the bolt (like mine were) (and it's not a bolt- it's the valve) you'll snap it off. So, there went $64 and $85 for a boneheaded "it's not broke, shouldn't have touched it" mistake. Inserted the new valves, checked coils for magnetism and they're good, and replaced them.

    At this point, I found an exploded diagram of the system. Decided to see if the motor would turn again, since I had verified that the relay was sending it voltage. I again only heard a click. Hopeful that holding it down for a few seconds would start it spinning (maybe it was gummed up?), I held it down for about 8 seconds. Smoke from under the hood. Motor was warm to the touch.

    Replaced the relay under the hood (it still worked OK but I wasn't going to take chances with a $9 part, the rest seemed to prove expensive). Removed the motor. Powdery gunk found where the motor slot turns the pump post, in that cavity area. Not sure -- was that supposed to be there? was it grease that had hardened and powder-ified? was it "battery powder" since the motor grounds to the frame and the positive terminal connects to top? Since I couldn't find what should go in there, I put a healthy amount of white lithium grease on the post.

    I tore-down the motor, which would not turn even with a lever in the slot. Lots of corrosion found where the motor output shaft contacts the brass bushing. Lots of PB Blast, CLR, brake cleaner, and 3-in-1 oil later, I had a nicely and easily spinning motor. Cleaned the insides of the motor, the brushes, and the contact pads. Oiled the outer and inner walls with a fine sheen to prevent condensative corrosion. greased just a bit the upper shaft and the output shaft. replaced motor on plow. Fired it up.

    It went up!


    when I hooked up the plow, which was sitting on cinder blocks, it rose maybe a quarter inch off the ground on one side, and would not raise any more. Re-hooked the chain to a lower link, tried again. The piston basically puts out VERY LITTLE force.

    Now, I moved the truck, with plow attached (since it was off the ground a bit with cinder blocks removed) to a place I can more easily work on it (plow was stored in a not-easily-workable place). The plow hasn't dropped, so it is holding well.

    I hooked up the angling cables (previously they had not been). Plow 'nudges' in each direction like it wants to move, but like it lacks the power to actually move. Same with the lift - it moves up fine with no resistence, but can't lift the plow at all.

    I can "help" raise it up with a jack, and the lowering seems to work just fine.

    So, I'm wondering what else I can check to find out why for some reason this year I have no "nuts" pressure-wise on the hydraulic output. Things I am thinking about:

    1) I did remove the C and B valves. Sould I somehow bleed the B/C block? How do I do that? Should I bleed the entire system? could air be stuck in there somewhere? Can someone point me to a bleeding guide for the unit? or is this not even a likely cause?

    2) I've seen references to check 'check' valves and filters. could this actually be a cause? can someone show me a diagram of where these filters might be? which ones to check?

    3) Could the motor, after rebuild, be spinning slower -- to slow -- to properly pump the hydraulic liquid, and thus have less PSI? Or would it simply just work, only slower, if the motor were the problem? I don't suspect a bad motor, as after I rebuilt it, it seemed to look clean and work fine. A new motor is about $65, which I'm obviously hoping to avoid buying, cuz honestly I'm thinking it's going to be something else...

    4) What other things could cause the output from the pump to be weak?

    There... newbie questions posed, hopefully with enough background to cancel out the extranneous "did you check your wiring?" questions, etc. :)

    Thanks all for your help on this.. i'm really going to feel like a boob if i end up having to truck this thing into some "plow repair shop" and have someone else fix it... I'd really like to figure this out and fix it myself.

    Thanks again! :)

  2. SnowGoJoe

    SnowGoJoe Junior Member
    Messages: 10

    Here's something interesting.
    I was reading this 'rebuild' graphical guide and came across the following:


    "We put the rebuilt E-47 onto our Custom Built Plow Pump Test Stand and checked the Pump output pressure. It was low, at only 1200 psi. We turned in the Adjusting Screw 1/2 a turn, and we got....1600 psi. right where it should be. (1650+/- 50)"

    So... there is the possibility that I inadvertently turned a screw/bolt or two attempting to open the case or get the motor out... question would be: which screw are they referring to? I can't find an "Adjusting Screw" anywhere in the manuals, or the entire rest of this graphical rebuild.

    ideas? maybe that's all I am missing, is that this Adjusting screw is all the way out?
  3. basher

    basher PlowSite Fanatic
    from 19707
    Messages: 8,990

    1) A bad pump

    2) Improper assembly

    3) No fluid

    Throw a set of gages on it and see what kind of pressure it produces.

    Did you disassemble the gear pump, if so buy a new one.
    Last edited: Nov 16, 2009
  4. SnowGoJoe

    SnowGoJoe Junior Member
    Messages: 10

    what is the gear pump? where do i get one?
  5. basher

    basher PlowSite Fanatic
    from 19707
    Messages: 8,990

  6. SnowGoJoe

    SnowGoJoe Junior Member
    Messages: 10

    Oh Awesome! I hadn't seen the service manual.
    So, the 'gear pump' looks /very/ simple in design.
    Any reason why it should be replaced simply if it was opened?
    contamination? need to be sealed with fluid in it?
    I think I may have opened it accidentally (screws on the bottom) thinking that was the way the electric motor came out before I undid the two screws on the top of the motor...
  7. basher

    basher PlowSite Fanatic
    from 19707
    Messages: 8,990

    That's what happens when you don't read.

    If you took it apart or even loosened everything up you need to replace it.
  8. SnowGoJoe

    SnowGoJoe Junior Member
    Messages: 10

    Yow, those are expensive.
    Is there a spring or something that comes apart inside if they're opened?
    I'm tempted to open it up now just to see if that's my problem...
  9. basher

    basher PlowSite Fanatic
    from 19707
    Messages: 8,990

  10. SnowGoJoe

    SnowGoJoe Junior Member
    Messages: 10

    i see it this way;
    if the part's broken, i need to buy a new one anyway, and if simply opening it breaks it, then heck i'm curious what manner of liquid gold must be in the thing to make it worthless after opening. It's not like it's a computer hard drive or something..

    i come from a place where asking questions isn't a bad thing - i asked twice what's in it that makes it break when simply opened, etc... I got good suggestions, but no answer. .. so... since i likely have to replace it anyway, why /not/ crack it open and satisfy my curiosity?

    Either everyone here already has done this and it's a joke, they don't want to tell about it, or /nobody/ here has done this, and nobody really knows what the answer is.

    Either way, I'll take pictures of the proess of disassembly and can post them here for interested parties. I'm fully anticipating to be able to post an "oh crap, he was right, here's the reason you don't want to take these apart" picture or two... such as the case may be. I'm not claiming not to be wrong, i probably am...

    but if someone told you that "your lawnmower is broke; buy a new one" and you asked "Wait, what on the lawnmower is broken?" and the only answers you got were "If you even changed the oil, replace it, don't spend anymore time on it" --- and then you planned to do as suggested and buy a new mower - and were prepared to do so - wouldn't you want to, out of curiosity, examine the old "mower you're going to throw away" to see what mysterious super-secret fairy dust escaped from it to make it fail? I know I would, especially if my alternative was replacing it altogether anyway. After all, might get lucky and find a really simple fix, and save about $200. Probably not, but never know, and likely going to have to spend it anyway.

    So... call me crazy for throwing away the dead oyster before even looking inside for pearls. :)

    I'll post what I find. If nothing else, maybe it'll be worth a good laugh! :)
    Thanks again-
  11. basher

    basher PlowSite Fanatic
    from 19707
    Messages: 8,990

    You can look to see how it works, but you won't fix it. There aren't any missing parts.

    Research hydraulic gear pumps. Here's a starter the answer are in it. Have fun learning, many of us have ripped one apart to look at it, but they are not repairable. I was trying to help you fix a broken pump, not teach a hydraulics engineering class.

  12. SnowGoJoe

    SnowGoJoe Junior Member
    Messages: 10

    Neat... so I'm guessing that by opening the case, either a seal is now displaced, broken, or otherwise bad... or it's somehow contaminated... or... maybe it's been cross-worn and now doesn't have a good seal within tolerance for the molecular mass of the fluid.

    This gives me /some/ ideas. not many.

    on my plate tonight: do some research on the fluid i've been using, do some investigation into possible contaminants, ... otherwise known as wasting valuable evening hours in my shop experimenting while I'm waiting for the expensive part to arrive via USPS. ;) <g>

    of course, theorizing on fluid types, clearance tolerances, and general $idea_of_the_minute things, is almost in direct violation of Occam's razor unless substantial evidence to support said theories exist. ;)
    so... yeah. before I make myself a road-map through chaos, i should have a general direction for my path chosen first. ;)

    Thanks! neat reading!
    (for the record, I still don't understand how just /opening/ the unit could destroy it... i mean... someone put it together in the first place, right? ;)

  13. SnowGoJoe

    SnowGoJoe Junior Member
    Messages: 10

    OK, so here's what I found (sad to report that my helper didn't show up until later, and i was kind of pressed for time last night, so due to not wanting to get my nice digital camera all funky with brake parts cleaner, fluid, and pb-blast, no pictures. :( ) ::

    1) the gear pump is VERY simple and elegant in design. Mine was clean, non-corroded, and appeared in awesome shape - EXCEPT that the main seal where the milled pieces of metal mate (four screws/plate) was not in the race correctly. It was being pinched and not sealing well.

    2) I removed the seal (rubber ring) and soaked for a while in hydraulic fluid. While that was happening, I cleaned out things with a very fine plastic brush and some cloth that didn't leave residue, and then cleaned and re-oiled the innards, gears, spindles, and copper bushings (no bearings!) that hold the very shiny and sharp (edges are sharp, not pointy-sharp, just well-machined-90-degree-angle-type sharp) gears and edges of the gear races).

    3) after some soaking, stretching (lightly), mild heating and cooling, the gasket looked almost normal in shape (not flattened much where it had been pinched, and almost completely circular (not oval) in diameter length-wise. Since this entire unit is not replacable or servicable, and i can't find a way to get this gasket replaced, great care was taken to restore it and preserve it. I wish I could have replaced it.

    4) light coating of fluid, and reassembled (very carefully and in a clean environment) the gear pump. reattached to plow. Also performed some other inspections, cleaning, and part replacement (filters, plugs, gunk from canister, etc) before reattaching pump unit.

    5) Assembled everything and checked torque and double-checked all holes, seals, and made sure to drizzle fluid liberally while reassembling things.

    6) Attached unit to truck. Filled with fluid, brand spankin new.

    7) Connected, powered up, and hit "UP".

    The thing was powerful and fast! It appears that the gear pump gasket had been the issue.

    Everything was going great until the third lift with the plow attached - I heard an audible POP and it stopped raising. Went around to look, and fluid was quickly (not drizzling, streaming) out of the dry-sump front vent hole underneath the electric motor.

    Removed that, and it's easy to see that the gasket on the input shaft had failed to hold pressure and had popped out of its race. It looked also like it was damaged during the rotation when it popped out, as the rubber is physically damaged slightly...

    LUCKY ME- this part IS in fact replacable, it seems. It's part number 15581 (item 3) "Shaft Seal" on the parts-list document "1-523R17".

    I ordered one from a local automotive store, and they had one in a branch in a nearby town (Gaylord) and it will arrive sometime today after 2pm.

    New question: Anyone know how to replace this seal? It doesn't seem to have any "edges" or "grooves" or "sides" to get a wrench or anything on... It is the seal that is around the input shaft on the pump.. when you're looking down at the sump where the motor mounts, and you see that flat shaft sticking up.. it's the rubber inside the metal flange around it.

    I get this seal replaced, and I think I'm in business. :) :) :)

    Thanks all! This has been really cool! (a bit expensive including the B and C valves I replaced, but hey, at least I avoided a $180 gear pump assembly... so far... ! which is... either really lucky or... really... um... lucky? hehe)

  14. basher

    basher PlowSite Fanatic
    from 19707
    Messages: 8,990

    Not yet you haven't;)
  15. SnowLane

    SnowLane Senior Member
    Messages: 125

    I have found that once the seal is blown out and replaced it will continue to blow out. This is caused by the bushing on the shaft being worn and sending pressure to the shaft seal. I always will replace the pump when I experience the shaft seal physically out of position because it will definately happen again. I do not think this is something to gamble with in the middle of the night in a snowstorm.
  16. basher

    basher PlowSite Fanatic
    from 19707
    Messages: 8,990

    he is convinced he can fix it.:nono:
  17. 33yearsinsnow

    33yearsinsnow Senior Member
    from ohio
    Messages: 111

    Thats an engineer for you. This is a gear pump, probaly original on a hydraulic unit that has not been in production of at least 10 years and could be as much as 25 years old. The pump is shot, change it.
  18. SnowGoJoe

    SnowGoJoe Junior Member
    Messages: 10

    That is the perspective I lack- 25yrs is indeed a long time, and I keep forgetting that.
    The bushing being worn is a valid point, and that looks very irreplacable. at least without my own machine shop :) course if i could afford that i'd just buy the pump lol.

    I, too, thought about the fact that since it's blown once, there could be cause for it to blow again.

    The part came yesterday, and extracting the old one was a complete pain.
    The part:
    is what looks sort of like a bearing. It's not. It's an L-shaped metal washer (hollow, not solid) containing a rubber-ish gasket which also is constricted to the shaft by a circular metal spring once in place.

    Removal of the old one: I drilled four teeny holes at 90-degree intervals in the face of the metal. I placed a block of wood over the assembly and ran self-tapping screws through the wood into the holes I drilled in the metal washer, careful not to scar the actual pump housing. Once they were in place, biting good, and secure, I pried the block of wood up so that all four intervals of the washer were extracted with even force. It almost worked. One of the holes began to tear, and I ended up with it 70% of the way extracted. The remainder of the trip I had to use a needle-nose plier, and in my quest to avoid scoring the pump housing, I destroyed the failed original seal (not a big deal, it was dead anyway, but I kinda wanted to keep it as a visual aide).

    I didn't spend a lot of time cleaning the walls where the new seal would sit, and this was intentional. That metal-on-metal will not be a part that moves, nor would I want it to save for replacing it in the future.

    I used a liberal amount of hydraulic fluid when replacing this seal. Really. Like, I put a plug in the weep hole of the sump and literally filled it up. I was putting the new seal into a veritable pool of fluid. :)

    I also took my sweet time about it, making sure fluid would coat the entire thing, inside and out.

    Once it was finger tight in the base, I found the only reliable way to insert it, lacking a bearing press, was to put an appropriately-sized socket on the face of the seal. I used another block of wood and C-clamps on either end of it to press it with constant distributed pressure into place. One thing I observed was that, and according to instructions it's OK, this one pressed further into the pump base than the original was sitting (even before the failure based on my observations).

    "3. PUMP (2)
    DO NOT at any time disassemble this Pump. This will
    void the warranty.
    a) The damaged pump drive Shaft Seal (3) may be
    removed by careful extraction with a pointed tool. Dip
    new Seal in oil and with lip down, press into Pump
    Housing flush to 1/32 inch below face of boss."

    The previous seal was slightly more than 1/32 inch ABOVE the boss face, as I recall, which may be one of the reasons it had failed.. Continue reading and I'll tell you why-

    Anyway, the new one, according to the R17 guide, is now correct.

    Preliminary tests (not under load, only twice) were good. It's working fine, WAY faster than I remember - and remember before when before the seal blew, I mentioned it had more power than I remember?

    ... it probably does!

    I hadn't checked the relief valve. For all I know that poppet might be frozen.

    I stopped after preliminary tests because:
    1) I'm still waiting on two nylite washers to arrive (the parts store insisted they came in a package of three since it said "kit". they were incorrect).
    2) I want to replace my filters (which did come in 2 per kit! hah)
    3) I want to inspect, clean, and reinsert the check valve assembly.

    Here are the reasons I believe my seal might have blown:
    1) I cleaned, initially, the top and the bottom of the gear pump with brake cleaner. I'm sure some fluid was displaced by it, causing the seal to not 'float' on the shaft.
    2) I didn't (this was my bad) properly re-lubricate this seal on the input shaft, top or bottom, when I was done.
    3) from what I could tell, the gears (driven and idler) looked OK in the bushings as far as play is concerned. I hope that remains true :)
    4) that poppet might be frozen... remember when I said it was stronger than I remember? Perhaps a previous owner set it REALLY tight because it was getting weaker and weaker. Perhaps I just increased its output by A LOT. I'm going to borrow a pressure gauge (two hardware stores didn't have one... hmmm.... ) after I reinsert the check valve today and see what I have as output. From what I read, those tiny pumps are powerful, and I may have to slack off on that check valve from it's previous setting.

    So... yeah, I'm mostly convinced it was my own fault the seal on the shaft blew (Yes, improper assembly! :) ).

    Yesterday was my birthday (I'm 33 now. feels weird) so I had the day off. Today is my second day off (haven't had a four day weekend since ... 2001? ) so we shall see what happens.

    I'm making progress on a lot of projects! (replacing a Toshiba S-AV24 RF power amp in an amateur radio to go back into my plow truck, reinsulating my attic, building a shed (I have no garage, so working on this stuff outside is a pain) to store the tools for winter, etc... So far, however, this pump has been the most interesting!

    Thanks all-

  19. SnowGoJoe

    SnowGoJoe Junior Member
    Messages: 10


    I'm really sorry for not posting sooner. Right after I made repairs, we got slammed by blizzards, and clearing drives and working extra hours (I'm a network engineer currently in the midst of a Nortel->Cisco conversion for more than 60 node stacks and more than 7000 network devices), so I've been all of these three things: Lucky, Fortunate, and busy. :)

    Anyway, here goes.

    "Finally! Diligence rewarded! Plow pump reassembly successful! Tested good, really put it through the ringer. Paint soon if WX breaks ;) #fb
    5:40 PM Dec 5th from TweetDeck"

    The snow really started to fall on Dec. 4th here. It kept coming. I worked a lot on it Friday night (4th) and finally finished it up mid-afternoon on Saturday (5th). By then we had mode than a foot of snow - perfect for testing.

    Since then we've not had an easy start of the winter. Lots of snow, ice, and whatever you call the in-between.

    So far, everything is working great. Perhaps I put the new input shaft seal in "better" this time (although I pretty much used the same process... hm) and it hasn't blown out. The plow pump is working well, sounds better, and is powerful... and by jove, it even seems faster than it had been in the previous year. Perhaps in my efforts to simply "make it work again" I also inadvertently made it faster. It sure is cleaner, that's a given just looking at it. It looks nicer than the truck, even unpainted. :D

    Sadly, I don't think the weather is going to break enough this season for me to get it painted, and I also had plans of repainting the plow blade surface (it's somewhat rusty, so snow sticks to it. a nice bright yellow and glossy clear coat will probably aide snow sliding off of it..).

    Anyway, I didn't want to be one of those douches that start a help thread, gets close to fixing it, and then once it's fixed you never hear the resolution.

    So here it is.

    It took a lot of fluid. My theory was that the input shaft seal blew due to little to no fluid in the pump gear housing once i opened, cleaned, and reassembled it. The image in my head was like when you lose power in your house for a while, and then later when it's on again, you turn on your faucet and are scared it's going to blow off the top of the sink because of the air pockets and water segments shooting through the end where it should be just water... i figured with this much pressure, if there's an air pocket, the likelihood of it causing enough of a stuttering pressure could indeed blow that seal right off.

    So, when I reassembled it, I did it with rubber gloves and having the gear pump submerged in a small pail of hydraulic fluid (I saved the old mostly-clean fluid and did it in there so as not to waste the $10/qt "new" fluid). After it was on the plow base, I turned the gears by hand, filled it and checked the levels indoors, and then worked the piston up and down and angled the unit spatially about so as to draw out any pockets of air.

    From there, it went on the truck. and it worked.

    I've been plowing every day, more than usual since the snowfall has been so unusually accelerated. So far so good! (except that now I'm pondering a new battery and bigger alternator, since with the advanced use, I need to keep letting the truck idle after extended plow use to get the charge back up. lol!)

    Anyway, wanted to give a status update and a "Yes, it can be done" report. Of course, my gear pump appeared in healthy shape once examined. I'm sure with a well-worn one, the only option might simply be replacement.

  20. John T

    John T Member
    Messages: 43

    I have also taken apart an E-47 gear pump successfully.

    It is a tight press fit, but when you tap it apart there are 2 rubber O-rings inside.

    I could not find a replacement o-rings anywhere (it's not really an o-ring, it is oblong)

    But anyway, I cleaned it up, reinstalled the o-rings and also used a flange sealant on the outer edges...
    and everything works fine.

    If you take your time and the inside rubbers are still good, it's worth a shot. IMO

    But if you want to just blindly listen to folks who are just repeating what they have heard and have no real experience..
    Then by all means, Go buy a new pump for $200.00

    "it can't be done" is NOT in my vocabulary.