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Major job - help bidding - 2 million sq ft

Discussion in 'Commercial Snow Removal' started by sk187, Aug 6, 2007.

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  1. sk187

    sk187 Senior Member
    Messages: 319

    I am working on a bid now for a large shopping complex, but need some guidance on how to bid it.

    The specs are as follows

    1,267,726 sq ft road and parking lot plowing
    51,809 sq ft side walk plowing
    411,138 sq ft total salt

    Bid is per push/pull, over 1.5 inches is mandatory, under 1.5 inches is there choice, and over 3 I have to set a price either per inch or per hour.

    The lot is mainly empty at night except for 1 bar that is open until 2 , so most of the plow area will need to be plowed.

    Most snow stock pile areas are easy to get to each pass (no overly long pushes).

    I have a

    2007 John Deere 544 that I will get a 16' box plow for

    X-county truck with 12' hyd angle blade / belly blade / and ez-8 salt spreader/ auger / 6 yd box for salt.

    2006 John Deere skid steer that I can outfit anyway I need for side walks or plowing.

    I think I will sub out the pickup truck plowing and clean up work to plowsite members in the area.

    The person in charge of snow plow contracts said it took the previous company 6+ hrs to plow under 3 inches across the site. The previous company had a loader with normal 5yrd bucket, backhoe with normal bucket, and several pickups.

    If anyone has any tips on bidding please let me know with a reply in this post.

    My plan was just to calculate salt cost and then figure a hourly rate for each piece of equipment and multiply that by 8hrs.

    Again any help or tips is greatly appreciated.

  2. lawnMaster5000

    lawnMaster5000 Senior Member
    Messages: 105

    I dont bid on big lots like that but one question that comes to mind for me on big stuff like that is how fast do they need it clean.

    I work as a sub on several shopping centers here and they want a truck there at all times during an event. (salt runs ok) Lot needs to be watering up within a few hours of end of event. Main isles and sidewalks kept clear during events, if they are open.

    8 hours would not be acceptable for these clients. Check to see what your potential clients expect. Is this why they are firing the old guy?
  3. sk187

    sk187 Senior Member
    Messages: 319

    This is a mall and they are not very demanding , they actually only require 1 plow of the side walks per event and there staff keeps them clean after that.

    They also only salt the entry ways not the sidewalks.

    The previous guy was fired because he always wanted to argue there was not enough snow to plow when the mall called him.
  4. Mark Oomkes

    Mark Oomkes PlowSite Fanatic
    Messages: 10,426

    That's almost 29 acres of plowing. If you assume an acre per hour per truck, that makes it almost 29 man hours with trucks. I think that average is a little low, and throw in the loader with ProTech and you're still going to be looking at more time than you have equipment. Add to that the lake effect that you receive and continual plowing, you're never going to get the job done with the equipment you have.

    What happens if the loader goes down? Or the muni truck?

    Do you know what the requirements are for malls before Christmas?

    If it were me, I'd have 2 loaders with ProTechs, 2 'set-up' vehicles--either pickups or SS's for getting the snow away from the edges, and the tight areas and daytime plowing. I would also have at least 2 salt trucks in case one breaks and also for late snows as well as just plain old being able to get the work done in a timely manner. Then start working on the sidewalks.

    The parking lot will probably not be quite as open as you think, either. Employees stocking, inventory, getting ready for sales both after closing as well as before opening are going to make for more cars than you think. The bar area won't empty out until at least 3 AM.
  5. sk187

    sk187 Senior Member
    Messages: 319

    The method I have decided is

    1 loader with 16' hyd angle plow (converts to box)
    1 muni truck with 12' plow and belly blade
    1 skid steer with 80+ inch blower

    and as many regular pickups as it takes.

    The skid steer cleans the curb so the loader(s) and muni truck have nothing but strait shots.
    The skid steer then cleans and salts the side walks.

    I have several loaders I can use if the storm is bad, just many are on job sites for excavation.
  6. grandview

    grandview PlowSite Fanatic
    Messages: 14,609

    Maybe I'm off on the size,but i helped out here a few times plowing.They had 15 loaders with push boxes.When it snowed at Christmas time they had every parking spot cleared out and all the snow hauled off the property.

    gallaria malll (Small).jpg
  7. Mark Oomkes

    Mark Oomkes PlowSite Fanatic
    Messages: 10,426

    I'd go with more loaders if I had them available. 1 loader with a good operator will replace 3 trucks with blades.
  8. WMHLC

    WMHLC Senior Member
    Messages: 248

    I would run 2 loaders with 16ft pushers and two skids for the walks/set-up and one pickup doing clean-up. Just think about a late, or day time storm, its going to be a nightmare. With only one loader its should take about 10 hours to clear that, wide open with no cars. Add cars I bet it would take 15plus, I would hate to see you get fired for taking all day and night to clear the lots.

    RBRONKEMA GHTFD 2000 Club Member
    Messages: 2,592

    I would bid this account you are talking about, but I subbed there last year 1 time (i now the guy that had the account last year) and I will never plow there again. It is to much on the pick ups. I would plow it all with skid steers and loaders. Just like lowes and wal-mart A skid steer would work better than a pick up truck. JMO!
  10. sk187

    sk187 Senior Member
    Messages: 319

    They want the bid as a hourly rate and as cheap as possible as they just came out of bankruptcy.

    My bid has figured in 7 hrs with 2" or less of snow.

    This includes

    -1 loader with a 16' power blade that has sides to make it a box plow.
    -1 Muni truck with 12' power angle blade/belly blade/salt spreader.
    -1 Skid Steer with 8' blower.
    -1-2 Pickups with plows.

    The loader and muni push the snow to the curbs where snow is to be stacked and the blower shoots the snow 30' into a ditch. This method eliminates snow removal which will save the mall alot of money.

    I have more loaders readily available but will not have the 16' pushers on them.

    I think I should be able to handle this and after a trial first run I can add equipment accordingly as it is a hourly rate.

    RBRONKEMA GHTFD 2000 Club Member
    Messages: 2,592

    Yeah but you can't rely on that blower because the chains on those things love to break and fall off. Plus the highway is right there too. What if you shot a rock or something at a car, and also a loader with a push box is going to bring alot of snow to the end of one of those runs. I know they don't seem very long but trust me they bring alot of snow. Think of when we get dumped on with a foot + of snow and that blower that could, isn't going to anymore. I don't know but if it was up to me I would have atleast 1 loader on each side and a skid on each side each stacking snow too.
  12. Mark Oomkes

    Mark Oomkes PlowSite Fanatic
    Messages: 10,426

    7 hours per piece of equipment? I hope?
  13. QuadPlower

    QuadPlower PlowSite.com Addict
    Messages: 1,056

    This is just my .02 because I have never plowed such a large area. But am bidding one this year.

    RBRONKEMA GHTFD's blower comment about the chains breaking is right on. They move alot of snow, but it is slow going. If you got 3" of snow and it was all pushed over to the ditch you would be looking at 11,000 cubic yards of un-packed snow so maybe 3,000 cuyd packed. (that is a guess based on it redusing volume by 1/3) If your ditch is 30' wide x 30' deep x 100' long, it will hold 3,333 cuyd of snow. If it is longer, deeper, narrower, etc, than that volume would change. If it was 1000 feet long it would hold 33,333 cuyd. or 10 3" snow falls. Obviously melting will occur at some point and types of snow would make a difference.

    I would keep the skid with the blower doing sidewalks and maybe helping out with the stacking when time allowed, but would us a loader to push it into the hole.

    RBRONKEMA GHTFD: How long did it take to plow it last year? What kind of equipment was used?

    MARK's equipment figures are what I would use if I could get them.

    Again, my specialty is sidewalks. So take it for what its worth.
  14. Mark Oomkes

    Mark Oomkes PlowSite Fanatic
    Messages: 10,426

    I don't think that snowblower mounted blower is going to be quite as productive as you think, even if your SS is a high flow model. If it isn't, it won't work.
  15. sk187

    sk187 Senior Member
    Messages: 319

    The job is now asking for a seasonal quote.

    I have it figured as
    2 loaders with 16' power angle blades that can turn into push boxes.
    1 muni truck with 12' power angle blade / belly blade / salter
    1 skid steer with 8' blower

    no pickups at this point as I think the 4 items above can handle it.

    RBRONKEMA GHTFD 2000 Club Member
    Messages: 2,592

    I was there doing clean up work with my truck for 4 hours and then I called it quits because I had alot of other stuff to do. (my own stuff). The contractor had 2 loaders and 2 john deere tractors 3520s I thinks or something like that. Plus a big salt truck and a few clean up trucks. I was there because one of the clean up trucks was out of service.

    You are still going to need to get another skid in there to do clean up work. In my opinion I would leave it for someone else this year, get everything figured out and then bid it next year. Also then you will get a chance to see what the other guy is using to do it too. JMO!
    Last edited: Aug 9, 2007
  17. grandview

    grandview PlowSite Fanatic
    Messages: 14,609

    Back in my #6 the contractor was paid 500,000.00 as a retainer just to be there and the mall was charged and hourly rate foe each piece of equipment.

    I would back off this also,but when it snows try and get there and take notes of what's happing.
  18. T-MAN

    T-MAN PlowSite.com Addict
    Messages: 1,363

    Thats a big site for a seasonal bid.
    Make sure you have plenty of CYA in the bid with a total snow fall cap. Have an agreement in place (before the season) to who will be measuring for your total. Thats alot of pavement for no cleanup rigs. A couple trucks with Blizzards PP or V-blades would be included in my bid. What about salt truck backup ? I would have a back up salt truck of some sort. I see Mark allready mentioned that. If you store salt on site you could get away with a 2 yard v box for BACKUP only.
    On the subject of salt is that included in your seasonal price ? If it is I would make sure you have plenty of CYA in that as well.
    Good luck
    Last edited: Aug 9, 2007
  19. Mark Oomkes

    Mark Oomkes PlowSite Fanatic
    Messages: 10,426

    May I ask how much experience you have with actual plowing? This is related to the other thread you started about finding seasonal snowfall amounts.
  20. ultimate plow

    ultimate plow PlowSite.com Addict
    from N. IL
    Messages: 1,761

    This size of a job requires at least a cupple large loaders with boxs and big CDL trucks with salt spreaders. At least 7 good size dump trucks all set up and pickups to do the small stuff. And whats up with them wanting you to only shovel walks one time? That big of a place I dont think the employees could handle all the shoveling? That would bother me if a customer said that
    Last edited: Aug 10, 2007
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