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Magic use on concrete.

Discussion in 'Ice Management' started by shovelracer, Jan 23, 2011.

  1. shovelracer

    shovelracer Senior Member
    Messages: 525

    I have something that has been eating me up and I would like to hear some of your thoughts. My concern is about magic and concrete chemical reactions specifically. Obviously the magic people will tell you it is the new sliced bread and that there is zero concern. I don't believe that at all. Lets look at the ingredients. Rock salt, proprietary distillery waste, and mag chloride.

    Rock salt = No known chemical reaction to concrete.

    Mag Cl = Known chemical reaction to concrete resulting in breakdown of strength.

    So lets hear some feedback about this topic from a scientific and halfway intelligent standpoint. Good or bad I want to hear it, but I want real world situations. I am not interested in product advertisement and dealer promotions.
     
  2. tuney443

    tuney443 PlowSite.com Addict
    Messages: 1,847

    plowing and entrepeneur

    How about 10 years+ of thousands of yards of Magic Salt sto
     
  3. tuney443

    tuney443 PlowSite.com Addict
    Messages: 1,847

    How about 10 years+ of thousands of yards of Magic Salt stockpiled and loaded off my supplier's concrete floor.Floor is in fine shape.Can't get any more real world than that.
     
    Last edited: Jan 23, 2011
  4. Matson Snow

    Matson Snow PlowSite.com Addict
    Messages: 1,985



    None of the Products listed will harm Concrete....This being said...The harm to Concrete comes from the Freeze thaw cycles caused by Mother Nature and expedited by the use of any ice melting Product....Properly Mixed, Finished and Cured concrete will stand up to a Great deal of Abuse...I would not worry about using Magic on Concrete......The Portland Cement Association has some good articles on ice melters and concrete....PCA.org....:salute:


    I forgot to put my Resume so im considerd to make comments on Real World Situations....21 years in the Concrete Industry....30 Years in and around the Snow Plowing Industry.....I hope i make the Cut.....
     
    Last edited: Jan 23, 2011
  5. WRIGHTWAY

    WRIGHTWAY Senior Member
    Messages: 104

    porsche club of america ? :confused:
     
  6. Matson Snow

    Matson Snow PlowSite.com Addict
    Messages: 1,985



    Sorry......Cement.org............Lets take me out back and kick the crap out of me
     
  7. WRIGHTWAY

    WRIGHTWAY Senior Member
    Messages: 104

    :laughing: looks like some good reading thanks Thumbs Up
     
  8. shovelracer

    shovelracer Senior Member
    Messages: 525

    Not concerned about freeze thaw issues. What I am concerned/ inquiring about is MgCl2 literally eating the concrete. Chemical reaction causing slow deterioration not freeze thaw scaling. Go ahead and search around, it is no secret that there have been issues with mag causing concrete damage and not cause of freeze & thaw. Big problem is deicing is like politics, everyone has a voice and no one ever agrees. Contrasting reports and studies are everywhere depending on who financed it.

    My question is with these reports what sort of concentrations are they using, and what is the actual real world usage and are they comparable. Do the proprietary changes to it change its chemical stability with concrete. With all due respect I think comparing a dry, covered, insulated pad to a weather exposed walk is totally different. I would love to think that all concrete is properly mixed and installed, but its not. No question about that, there is bad concrete everywhere in all forms.

    It should not be a secret that deicing claims are bent to increase sales. It would be irresponsible to just go spouting out these claims. Hence my inquiry.
     
  9. Matson Snow

    Matson Snow PlowSite.com Addict
    Messages: 1,985


    Go to Cement.org...They have articles on Mag and concrete......Im not gonna do your leg work for you....

    Heres a Hint.....Mag is More agressive towards concrete that Sodium......With that being said .....You would have to Dump Truck loads of mag on crappy concrete over alot of years to watch it Eat away.....
     
    Last edited: Jan 23, 2011
  10. shovelracer

    shovelracer Senior Member
    Messages: 525

    Do you have a problem. I've been to the site and many others. One of the articles I originally found there is what got this rolling. I'm not spewing BS here either. You are the one that was saying that MgCl2 will not harm concrete, and acting like I just asked you to price my first driveway for me. We both should agree that MgCl2 WILL harm concrete. The question is would in the course of normal use there be signs of deterioration, if so over what course of time, and to what degree, and does the proprietary mix in Magic have any effect either way on this.

    Straight from cement.org

    "A few laboratory studies have been conducted to determine the effects that MgCl2 has on concrete. Some studies report that the deterioration witnessed in the field is possibly the result of chemical attack on the concrete that weakens the paste structure. "
     
  11. Matson Snow

    Matson Snow PlowSite.com Addict
    Messages: 1,985



    That article is From i Believe 1996.....Need some more recent data.....Plus that study is for Straight Mag on a road surface....I dont know about you...But we can not afford to throw down Straight Mag in that volume....

    My stand point from Being in the Concrete Field for 20+ years is this.....Mag in the doses that will come in Magic or any other source for De-iceing will not harm concrete any more that any other de-icer out there......You Question was about Magic and the Mag it has in it if im not Mistaken.....

    One of reason Mag is so much more Aggressive towards Concrete is the Heat it Creates.....

    It all boils down to Quality of the Concrete...i.e. Mix, Finish Etc....
     
    Last edited: Jan 23, 2011
  12. shovelracer

    shovelracer Senior Member
    Messages: 525

    Thank you that was a more appropriate response along the lines of what I was looking for.
     
  13. tuney443

    tuney443 PlowSite.com Addict
    Messages: 1,847

    Let me elaborate more then.Here,the resume is a 70 year old concrete floor to a building that was originally built as a municipal bus garage.Hence,the floor is probably 8'' thick and most likely a 5K PSI mix and it is still as smooth as a mirror.Old school masonry done right.For at least the last 10 years that I know of,tri-axle dump trucks full of salt,tractor trailers full of Magic juice,and loaders of all kinds have gone on this floor.There are puddles of Magic juice all over and the entrance is open to the elements. The floor has not been affected by the Magic,it is sound,no cracks and no spalling.

    Like you said,all concrete is not installed correctly and/or properly mixed.That being said,don't blame Magic,straight salt,weight,or even water from ruining it as it was already ruined.It is what it is.
     
  14. Matson Snow

    Matson Snow PlowSite.com Addict
    Messages: 1,985



    Sorry you took my first response wrong....No Dickheadedness intended......:salute:
     
  15. Dr Who

    Dr Who Senior Member
    Messages: 637

     
  16. Matson Snow

    Matson Snow PlowSite.com Addict
    Messages: 1,985

     
  17. Dr Who

    Dr Who Senior Member
    Messages: 637

     
  18. shovelracer

    shovelracer Senior Member
    Messages: 525

    It is a very fine subject that most customers will not want to hear about. The bottom line is yes, deicing will cause accelerated deterioration. However it is the freeze and thaw and not the product itself that is generally responsible. So it is the use of product X but not the product itself that causes it. Of course it depends on use. There was a local restaurant that had SRW blocks along a walkway installed. When they treated it they treated it, you practically had to wade through an inch of whatever it was they were putting down even after the ice was gone. Within 2 years the blocks were gone. Literally gone. The top row was maybe 25% of its original size, and the face of the rest had lost several inches of material. They crumbled back to their original gravel state. With proper use this would not have happened.

    Now if you want to get more complex it can be affected by area temperatures. Maybe somewhere that is warm like say virginia can use salt without damage because it never gets cold enough to freeze the brine. Much the same where somewhere like maybe minnesota you can use Cal or Mag and see the same or worse damage than regular salt because the temps are such to allow for freeze and thaw in the range of the products freeze point. But rock salt won't work at all because it might never get warm enough.
     
  19. Dr Who

    Dr Who Senior Member
    Messages: 637

    Not sure what SWR blocks are, but I understand what happen!

    I know that my steps and sidewalk have taken a beating in the last few years, I tend to g o a little heavy as I fell down my steps a few years ago due to the ice.. So I salt them pretty good, not anything like what you were talking about, but I use a little more then I have to. My steps crumbled this summer, I replaced them with wood, but my sidewalk is looking pretty bad, but then again my walkway and steps are about 85-90 years old....

    I think that our problem (out area) is that we get the freeze and thaw almost every day, its below freezing at night and above during the day, so the act of the water in the porous areas of the concrete work double time.....
     
  20. Omran

    Omran Senior Member
    from KY
    Messages: 265

    Tuney443;
    As soon as I seen your avatar I forgot what the magic salt is used for :bluebounc purplebou :redbounce