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Magic Salt, Or Other BIO Additives.

Discussion in 'Ice Management' started by White Gardens, Jan 25, 2011.

  1. White Gardens

    White Gardens 2000 Club Member
    Messages: 2,665

    What is in Magic Salt, or any other salt treated with Ag bi-products. Basically what is it Exactly.

    Reason I ask is that I'm thinking of doing a pre-wetting system to drop onto my spinner when throwing salt to help speed up the process and possibly use less salt.

    There is an Ethanol plant/distillery nearby and can probably get the product for the fraction of the cost over buying it through Magic or others. I know corn bi-products are used in some.

    Thanks.
     
  2. Westhardt Corp.

    Westhardt Corp. Senior Member
    Messages: 845

    With exception to straight Geomelt (not Geomelt 55), they are (in my research) all MgCl based, with varying sources of carbohydrates (ie: "distiller's byproduct", "corn sugar", etc). I've read every MSDS out there, and you won't find any specifics on them--"proprietary". Some will have straight molasses, some have beet juice, and then you have CaCl, Urea, CMA and other Acetetes.

    In short, you're not likely to get the answer you're looking for. I guess the real question should be "what are you looking to accomplish?", then you can figure out which product will be the best choice.

    :(
     
  3. White Gardens

    White Gardens 2000 Club Member
    Messages: 2,665

    Thanks. I did just finish some research and found this on a OCPA newsletter and it confirmed my suspicions. It looks like the CCDS from the local Ethanol plant is exactly what I'm looking for.

    I'm looking to reduce salt usage from an environmental standpoint and also as a cost cutting alternative. I would still use standard road salt, but in conjunction with a solution. Basically I want to "drop" a solution onto my spinner as I'm throwing salt to create a brine faster.

    OCPA newsletter

     
    Last edited: Jan 26, 2011
  4. Westhardt Corp.

    Westhardt Corp. Senior Member
    Messages: 845

    Nice find, but I gotta wonder--what's the other 70%?
     
  5. Digger63

    Digger63 Member
    Messages: 44

    Parts of the reciepe

    Probably just plain water, Most of those ingrediants are mixed with water to a certain percentage of product, I've suspect that water is used in all deicer products so that it can be mixed or sprayed onto salt. Most chemicals have a high specific gravity ( hence more weight per pounds) whereas water is abount seven pounds per gallons and light incomparrison to them. Solids would also be heavier adding to the weight of the product. You could actually look at the specific gravity of any product to see what the actual weight is. A heavy product would have more solids and chemical and less water. A lighter product would have more water.
     
  6. White Gardens

    White Gardens 2000 Club Member
    Messages: 2,665

    Water. It's a brine solution, and water is the base.

    After my reading I'm figuring out too why you see municipal trucks with the small side tanks on the boxes. Magic and others say that if you are treating rock salt with their product, you only need to use 8 gallons per ton to get the full effect so really it doesn't take a whole lot in all reality unless you are trying to primarily use liquid.

    That and magic and others are claiming a safer organic approach even though there is still salt and calcium chloride in mix is because of the corn bi-product helps to neutralize the corrosive nature of salt.

    It's all making sense to me now. I need to call the ethanol plant today and figure out how much the CCDS is going for per gallon and see how much it will cost to mix 100 gallons at a time and if it's going to be cost effective to mix my own.

    That and I need to figure if Mag Chloride will substitute for Calcium for an even less corrosive cocktail.
     
    Last edited: Jan 26, 2011
  7. White Gardens

    White Gardens 2000 Club Member
    Messages: 2,665

    Just saw your post and thanks for the info.

    The Material Data sheet for CCDS gives the average specific gravity of the product so I can use that data for the mix also.
     
  8. Westhardt Corp.

    Westhardt Corp. Senior Member
    Messages: 845

    FWIW, IL does not use any Mag--just Cal, now.


    Oh, and Digger--H2O is 8.33 lb/gal, for reference. I would hate to see any major overweight issues resulting from underestimating water weight.

    :laughing:
     
  9. tuney443

    tuney443 PlowSite.com Addict
    Messages: 1,847

    Actually, it's 8.35 lb./gal.,not to get too anal about the matter,but the gestapo police are everywhere with their scales.Thumbs Up
     
  10. White Gardens

    White Gardens 2000 Club Member
    Messages: 2,665

    Ya, was just reading up on some info and it looks like Mag CL is the root cause of flaking on concrete surfaces rather than calcium CL.

    Even though, that's another debate for another time as concrete degradation from ice-melters is a heated topic.

    Calcium appears to have advantages temp wise over Mag.

    If I get a chance to, I want to try out a system by the end of this season, but I'm running out of time. Might be a project to tackle over the summer and start doing trials next winter. That would also give me plenty of time to get all my calibrations correct.

    If, even at 8 gallons per ton of rock salt. means I can treat up to 12 tons per 100 gallons.

    Or, even at 10 gallons per ton, I could treat up to 10 tons, which would get me about 3 loads of salt on my truck and that's about what I use during long duration events.
     
  11. Westhardt Corp.

    Westhardt Corp. Senior Member
    Messages: 845

    Odd...http://ga.water.usgs.gov/edu/waterproperties.html

    (I always try to ensure accuracy if I talk specifics)

    :confused:


    WG--Cal is always going to burn colder than Mag, and in general is easier on concrete. BUT, we all know now that only hungry salt eats concrete.

    :mechanic:
     
  12. White Gardens

    White Gardens 2000 Club Member
    Messages: 2,665

    :laughing: I saw that in someone's sig on here. Cracks me up every time I see that quote.
     
  13. tuney443

    tuney443 PlowSite.com Addict
    Messages: 1,847

    So do I,there were some other sources regarding this,some in your favor,but most in mine,but I chose this one to show everybody because it's actually temperature dependent.
    :drinkup:

    Resources, Tools and Basic Information for Engineering and Design of Technical Applications!




    Custom Search

    Water - Density and Specific Weight
    Density and specific weight of water at temperatures ranging 0 - 100 oC (32 - 212 oF) - Imperial and SI Units
    Sponsored Links



    At aprox. 4oC (39.2oF) pure water has it's highest density (weight or mass):

    1 g/cm3 = 1 g/ml = 1 kg/litre = 1000 kg/m3 = 1 tonne/m3 = 62.4 lb/ft3 = 8.34 lb/gallon.
    Densities and Specific Weight of Water in Imperial Units
    Temperature
    - t -
    (oF) Density
    - ρ -
    (slugs/ft3) Specific Weight
    - γ -
    (lb/ft3) (lb/US gallon)
    32 1.940 62.42 8.3436
    40 1.940 62.43 8.3451
    50 1.940 62.41 8.3430
    60 1.938 62.37 8.3378
    70 1.936 62.30 8.3290
    80 1.934 62.22 8.3176
    90 1.931 62.11 8.3077
    100 1.927 62 8.2877
    120 1.918 61.71 8.2498
    140 1.908 61.38 8.2048
    160 1.896 61 8.1537
    180 1.883 60.58 8.0969
    200 1.869 60.12 8.0351
    212 1.860 59.83 7.9957
     
  14. Westhardt Corp.

    Westhardt Corp. Senior Member
    Messages: 845

    True, it is affected by temperature. I do hope the .0058 lb difference doesn't throw off the batch. 2.68 grams can really cause a problem, especially when there's only 3778.424421 grams per gallon @ 60°F.

    :D
     
  15. White Gardens

    White Gardens 2000 Club Member
    Messages: 2,665

    OK, come on guys, play nice. :laughing:

    Weight is definitively something you need to consider and I'm glad you guys brought that up. I'm a stickler for staying withing my weight limit and the system is going to add weight that I'll need to compensate for.

    That or I'll just go get a POS old F-250 or 2500 and stick B plates on it, throw a salter with 2 tons on, and add 100 gallons of liquid and I won't get pulled over. :waving:
     
  16. Westhardt Corp.

    Westhardt Corp. Senior Member
    Messages: 845

    :D

    I only mentioned it because of previous experience hauling truckloads of bulk liquid. The difference we're "discussing" is trivial, but a 1+ lb/gal difference is a very big deal. On the heels of your recent declarations of legal loads, it was only fair to bring that up.

    Although, there would be a little ironic humor if you made a thread reading "So I Got an Overweight Ticket"...

    :mechanic:
     
  17. cretebaby

    cretebaby PlowSite Veteran
    Messages: 4,162

    :mechanic:
     
  18. White Gardens

    White Gardens 2000 Club Member
    Messages: 2,665

    :laughing::laughing::laughing:

    Seriously made me laugh.

    Ya, I'll be eating crow some day if that happens.
     
  19. Westhardt Corp.

    Westhardt Corp. Senior Member
    Messages: 845

    Just be sure to copy that title and use it exactly...royalty free, of course.

    :cool:
     
  20. tuney443

    tuney443 PlowSite.com Addict
    Messages: 1,847

    I'll trust your calculations to be right on.:)I saw the slight difference of weights in the temp. ranges and just wanted to mention it.With the gestapo police by me,say with a 5K gallon tanker,it could possibly make a difference whether you get an overweight ticket or not.