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Liquid?

Discussion in 'Ice Management' started by ajslands, Nov 18, 2010.

  1. ajslands

    ajslands 2000 Club Member
    Messages: 2,033

    What is so special about liquid and seems like it is more of a hassle than good! You have to do like 3 treatments which seems like a huge waste of time and fuel! And labor!
    You have to make te stuff (ya okay certain place sell it)
    i've been told liquid dosn't do crap when it's like 32 degrees out?

    When driving down the road and you're tank is half full you probably feel the jolting back and fourth when you stop.

    With rock salt you just load it up and go and everyone sells it and it can be mixed with sand. So why do people use liquid?
     
  2. elite1msmith

    elite1msmith 2000 Club Member
    from chicago
    Messages: 2,762

    i have only tried about 200 gals, altho i would like to get more into it

    the reasons we considered it as follows:

    1. remember 3 years ago when there was a salt shortage? heck any thing that would melt ice was being used...i bet some even tried table salt. liquid is another form of a product that was avalible at the time. No rock salt, but plenty of liquid

    2. price - best i can tell, it would cost you around 40 dollars to treat an acre depending on what you are using. when salt was 140 per ton 2 years ago, liquid suddenly was way cheaper per application

    3. multiple applications ...some people are willing to pay for those applications.....ud be surpised at the customers that will have you salt, just to salt, its a liablity thing

    4. low cost equiptment. considering at a simple form, a tank, some hose, and a peace of pipe welded to a hitch with holes in it.,..less than 400 cost and your set up. even a pump system can be made or bought for a few thousand dollars. logisticly speaking, all you need is a tank, no block walls, no bins, no tarps, NO LOADER OR SKIDDER ...just a simple pump. in fact you could have a tank at every site and just drive site to site no need to go back to the shop to reload

    5. liquid pre treating can be done days before the storm, during the day or night, so why loose sleep, or scamble to pre treat, then plow....pre-treat in the morning, go to bed, get up when it starts snowing

    6. easy of use - which would you rather do.... load bagged salt into a hopper? start a skidsteer (below zero outside) to load bulk rock salt? clear a jam in the auger of yoru spreader... or simply connect up a house, start a pump and from there thats about the worst issue you would have....too be honest id almost do gravity just becasue there is nothing to go wrong. nothing can jam up.

    7. flexablity- around by me, most do bulk rock on the parking lot, and bagged calcuim on the side walks.... well liquid calcuim is so cheap, you can spray it on the parkign lot, then unwind 20 feet of house and spray it on the side walks. no more lifting bags in and out of the truck

    8. temps...depending on your product it can work to very low temps

    9. dry snows- you know those snows that are like .5 inch, dry, its very cold outside...most people end up appling a ton of salt, not beauase it doesnt melt thesnow, but becasue the snow does not have the mostior content to desolve the salt pellet... you end up with a parking lot that has been over applied and the lot turns white

    10. when mixed with salt it create a powerful tool

    11. it is much much easier to calibrate, if yoru really into saving money, you really know temperatures, a sprayer is easier to dial the pressure back.

    12. melting is like instantly almost

    13. not shooting pellets at walking people or cars

    14. i think depending on your boom set up, and how you drive thuogh the lot while appling, that it doesnt rust out the truck near as bad, since the majority of the chemical is in plastic tanks, and yoru boom could be 8 inches off the ground if you wanted.


    those were the main things i came up with

    biggest propblem with it, is A the unknown, lets face it our customers arnt gonna just let us try out products on parking lots...if it doessnt work then what

    B. it is limited in certain areas, wet snows, hard pack, ice, freezing rain, and buring off more than 1 inch its an issue. and these are the type of situations when we really need a good well working product the most.

    c. rock salt, offers traction in the form of friction, mulch like sand...liquid does not
     
  3. ajslands

    ajslands 2000 Club Member
    Messages: 2,033


    Thank you! :nod: :nod: :nod: :nod:

    I've only seen a few sprayer setups and it seems I recall seeing a sign say "caution liquid deicing in process" "keep back x mount of feet"
    why is this?
     
  4. elite1msmith

    elite1msmith 2000 Club Member
    from chicago
    Messages: 2,762

    seen it on salters too

    i will say that calcuim will destroy metal way faster than rock salt, so i would stay back thats whats in the tank
     
  5. flykelley

    flykelley 2000 Club Member
    Messages: 2,124

    If you over apply it and it can make pavement slippery. Don't even think about using liquid in the middle of a heavy snow, it just turns everything to a very slippery slush.

    Mike
     
  6. Brian Young

    Brian Young PlowSite Veteran
    Messages: 3,382

    Well, all I can say is you are misinformed to say the least.
     
  7. ajslands

    ajslands 2000 Club Member
    Messages: 2,033

    You mean elite smith told me wrong? weird! I found his information to be very informative.
     
  8. Brian Young

    Brian Young PlowSite Veteran
    Messages: 3,382

    No, you are misinformed about the info in your first post is wrong. Elite is right on.
     
  9. Brian Young

    Brian Young PlowSite Veteran
    Messages: 3,382

    Under applying liquid can flash over on you and make things slippery, over applying will just keep things bare.
     
  10. ajslands

    ajslands 2000 Club Member
    Messages: 2,033

    It was mostly a question/ confirmation. But okay which parts, I'm pretty sure you have to pre treat.
     
  11. elite1msmith

    elite1msmith 2000 Club Member
    from chicago
    Messages: 2,762

    I can't comment about the over and under applying. I have heard that when you over apply calcium, complaints about being slick

    Other thing that we had thought about, you can set up a truck to do both liquid and salt...nice deal, if you burn up your spreader motor, at least you have the liquid set as a back up.
     
  12. Brian Young

    Brian Young PlowSite Veteran
    Messages: 3,382

    Yeah IDK about the Calcium as well. We ran both on a truck 2 years ago and it was the best of both worlds. The ideal set up would be on a F650 or 750 flat bed with a 14 or 16ft bed. I think a gallon of liquid weighs about 11lbs and 2 tons of salt is well, 2 tons,lol so something with enough carrying capacity. So many options, so little $$$$$
     
  13. elite1msmith

    elite1msmith 2000 Club Member
    from chicago
    Messages: 2,762

    Yeah I know it, actually I had a really slick idea for this new truck...only problem was I don't have fold down sides.

    It's always been an issue of where to store tools in a dump truck. Pulling trailers just to haul around a brick saw or bush trimmer is dumb. So I saw this tree company that had a dump box with fold down sides. Well they made the drivers side into a kind of tool box. Basicly had heavy gauge metal bent and it bolted to the floor of the dump box. Totally removable, but it was the whole length of the dump box. Pole saw, chain saw, trimmers what ever could be put in it, with total acess. I never much looked the "piggy back" style because it adds lenth to your truck,you loose visibility, and really besides opening the doors, it's hard take advantage of all the room, and hard to get things in and out.

    Any way , almost every truck I know, you max out on weight well before you max out on space in the box. So i figure loosing 2x1.5x10 feet isn't gonna hurt too much. Well then I was thinking, inside that compartment would be a great place for bagged salt or liquid tanks...they would be totally protected, and if you did a gravity system, the dump box works to your advantage
     
    Last edited: Nov 18, 2010
  14. Brian Young

    Brian Young PlowSite Veteran
    Messages: 3,382

    I posted pictures a while back of our set up. It was a 300 gallon skid tank (gravity fed) and I only needed to use a Fisher 1000 for rock. I carried about 15 80 pounders at a time plus the tank and the larger Toro single stage snow blower. It all fit and worked out well. It was the best out fitted truck around, I could handle every situation.
     
  15. ajslands

    ajslands 2000 Club Member
    Messages: 2,033

    so basicaly you need to put the right amount down or it's not going to be right? Sounds like too much makes it slipery and too little makes it bare.


    I think I'll just stay with rock salt. Thanks for the info.
     
  16. elite1msmith

    elite1msmith 2000 Club Member
    from chicago
    Messages: 2,762

    its not too hard, but you do have to try it out, calibrate your rig, and be a little bit of a chemist

    heres what i never understood - if some one could help me out

    they mix the stuff up so that it has the lowest possible freexing point, brine for example i think is in the market of 23%? however when sprayed on the ground it then has to mix with water in the snow and it deloots out. hence the reason that liquid is limited in what it can do

    SO WHY DO THEY NOT MAKE A BRINE OR LIQUID THAT IS around 35% for example, assuing that it will delute when hitting the pavment.

    yes im aware that would leave alot grit in the bottom ouf your tank, you might need bigger nozzels, and things along this line, im aware that in the storage state it has a higher freezing point, but if it works better isnt that a bonus and worth the trade off?
     
  17. TCLA

    TCLA 2000 Club Member
    Messages: 2,699

    Salt is king no matter how you slice or dice it. Liquids are not new, they have been around for a long time. elite is very correct in his post....most got into it out of desperation 3 years ago.



    We are now back to where salt is cheaper to use than this comparison. At least around here no one is paying $80.00 per ton to get it.

    Unless you are talking about the acetates, the down sides to the most commonly affordable liquids can be harsh and difficult to overcome when using liquid alone. Treating your bulk with liquid is the best use of it.
     
  18. ForestEdgeSnow

    ForestEdgeSnow Senior Member
    Messages: 136

    I have been doing some experments at home and I beilve water has reached it's solubility for salt at 23%. The water moloucole can only hold so much sodium chloride. To answer your question. I have been running magniusm chloride and sodium chloride blend in the solid form. I probably put out $150 worth of material the other day in an Ice storm and if I could reduce my cost to $40 an application I am saveing $2000 a year. Plus the cost of a set up is way cheaper then a spreader. If I have a spreader in one truck and My questions is if soduim chloride is 23% and you want to add calcium chloride what is the solubility of cc with soduim chloride brine.
     
  19. elite1msmith

    elite1msmith 2000 Club Member
    from chicago
    Messages: 2,762

    correct it will only hold so much , but then why not just have it flow out like a slury? sure some small salt will not be totally desolved into the water, but could it not still allow those smaller particles to flow out and then mix with the snow on the ground?
     
  20. elite1msmith

    elite1msmith 2000 Club Member
    from chicago
    Messages: 2,762


    as stateed in my post above, liquid has very little effect in an ice storm, it deluts out to quickly and your better with solid form. it sounds like your using bagged salt. so yes the liquid app would be cheaper, just know its limitations, and that sits only really effect and good for 50% of storms. you need to be able to spread rock salt the other 50% or spray a heck of alot of liquid