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Liquid Deicer

Discussion in 'Ice Management' started by mchur01, Feb 16, 2011.

  1. mchur01

    mchur01 Senior Member
    Messages: 109

    Hey guys thinking about possibly trying liquid deicing, whats your thoughts, or if you have used it how is it comparable to salt??? Don't really know any1 in our area to ask..
     
  2. EliteSnow&Ice

    EliteSnow&Ice Senior Member
    Messages: 129

    This is my third season using well brine, and have had good luck with it.

    We started the first season with a 1 ton truck, 275 gallon IBC tote, a 5gpm elec pump, and 7 teejet sprayer tips. Very slow going you could only go 2 to 3 miles per hour or go over the lot 4 five time to get enough product down to get it do work.

    The 2nd season we added a second 5gpm elec punp and a tailgate salt spreader. We would apply 80% to 90% liquid and 10% bagged salt. Worked better and where able to cover the lots a little faster.

    This year we bought a GMC w4500, 550 gallon tank, 4 hp 1 1/2" pacer pump, 1" teejet ball bearing valve and jumped up to 13 teejet nozzles. Not sure how much product were putting down per min due to the fact we where so late in the season getting it set up. We run half throttle, 35psi and drive 8 to 10 mph, and it seems to get enough product down.

    With very limited storage space, liquid made sense. We bought 30 (cost was $50 each), 325 gallon ibc totes and stack the 2 high in a 14 x 30 storage space and it left room for a couple of pallets of bagged salt.

    So what do I think I know:

    Is liquid a 100% replacement for rock salt 100% of the time, no. Does it work well for me on my lots 90% of the time, yes. If we have Ice, hard pack, really cold weather or really wet snow we have to adjust and throw rock salt with it.

    We use it as both a pretreat and post treat. As a pretreat we hit some lot that we would plow with 1" of snow prior to the storm if the snow is going to come during the day. Liquid doesn't go any where, or get tracked off very much so it stays till it snow comes and lets us stay out of the lots during business hours and most times we reapply and met the remaining snow off.

    As a post treatment is where it shines, We apply right after plowing a lot. It hits the ground its off and running and alot of time before i can make my next loop the first it bare and black, its that fast. Ive tried 2 different suppliers and I like both products, the cost is the same, but they seem to work slightly different the each other. Both are about the same 26% to 28% and are the same base calcium chloride. One seems to take off faster but doesnt last as long where the other is slower but last longer. There could be many factors as to what makes me think this way. Temp, moisture content, variance in application, blah blah blah.

    What I am thinking:

    1. investing in a sprayer control unit with flow rate and pressure control. Sure its a $2000 to $2500 investment. Is it worth the investment to a small guy like me that only applies 60000 gallons in a season? Maybe, I like the ideal of being ably to apply a consist amount of product across a lot regardless of how fast or slow the driver travels.

    2. Learning how i can add certain chemicals to the product to increase its effectiveness depending on weather conditions and temp.

    Oh 1 more thing, the search button is your friend. Most of everything I have learned has come for these forums. I want to take a moment and thank all of those who willing supply knowledge and their experiences.
     
  3. Brinemaster

    Brinemaster Junior Member
    Messages: 2

    Anybody try any of the new automated brinemakers on the market? Wondering how long it would take to recover costs! Thanks for the replies.
     
  4. Kubota 8540

    Kubota 8540 PlowSite.com Addict
    Messages: 1,952

    EliteSnow&Ice,
    "This year we bought a GMC w4500, 550 gallon tank, 4 hp 1 1/2" pacer pump, 1" teejet ball bearing valve and jumped up to 13 teejet nozzles. Not sure how much product were putting down per min due to the fact we where so late in the season getting it set up. We run half throttle, 35psi and drive 8 to 10 mph, and it seems to get enough product down."

    1) If you give me the TeeJet nozzle number I'll calculate it out for you.

    2) Rate Controller? The more complicated the equipment, the more can go wrong? Just My Opinion.

    3) I use a 90/10 mix. 90 % Salt Brine and 10% Calcium Chloride. Make my own salt brine, lowers the cost considerably and works great. Below 5 degrees approx. I spray cal chloride straight.


    Brinemaster ,

    Look under Ice Management for My New Brinemaker Thread. Not exactly commercial but another member used it to make 30,000 gallons last winter.
     
  5. EliteSnow&Ice

    EliteSnow&Ice Senior Member
    Messages: 129

    I am using sj3-20-vp at 30psi, which should give me 1.75 gallons per min. using water.
     
  6. Kubota 8540

    Kubota 8540 PlowSite.com Addict
    Messages: 1,952

    Yep, and 55-79 gal/acre at 8-10 mph.
     
  7. EliteSnow&Ice

    EliteSnow&Ice Senior Member
    Messages: 129

    Thanks for the math. I guess I am going to try and change tips to get a higher flow or add more heads. Can u tell me, if I want to jump up to 100 gallons an acre and drive 10 to 12 mph what size tips I would need to run at 30 psi
     
  8. Kubota 8540

    Kubota 8540 PlowSite.com Addict
    Messages: 1,952

    Wait a minute....13 tips....oops....What spacing are your tips...20"? That's what I based my numbers on. Black SJ3's are the largest of the triple stream .You have the volume from your pump/valve.

    For the 90/10 mix I spray, my spray bar in my avatar has 16= SJ3=20 tips and 4 fan spray tips on a 100" boom. It's like having a Snow Eraser.
     
    Last edited: Jul 15, 2011
  9. MASMG

    MASMG Junior Member
    Messages: 2

    liquids

    We are a snow removal company that is owned by a property management company in Wi. Ownership is expanding into Western Michigan, Indiana and parts of Ohio with a purchase of a large package of industrial/office buildings. We use liquids here in Wi. and trying to find out what is used in those areas and what the cost are for semi loads and totes. Looking for a chloride such as calcium or mag, and a blend of cal or mag with one of the organics (beet, magic, corn)
    Any info would be great.

    Thanks,
    Steve
    Mid-America Snow Management Group
     
  10. viper881

    viper881 Senior Member
    Messages: 458

    What part of western michigan would it be shipped to
     
  11. MASMG

    MASMG Junior Member
    Messages: 2

    We would be looking at Grand Rapids, Muskegon, Battle Creek and Wayland. We also soon will be looking for contractors in those areas.
    Thanks
    Steve
     
  12. Superior L & L

    Superior L & L PlowSite Veteran
    from MI
    Messages: 3,039

    Wow, elite 60,000 sounds like a lot to run though 300 gallon totes !!!we had a truck set up to just spray for the last 3 seasons it would put down 2000 gallons a night and I think we only used 60-70,000 gallons. We are now out of liquid deicing due to us selling that truck.
    Just sold the 1000g leg tank but have the gas motor, in cable control with regulator and spray bar if someone wants to make me a offere
     
  13. EliteSnow&Ice

    EliteSnow&Ice Senior Member
    Messages: 129

    The company that supplies me says I am the only one in Michigan that they know of storing bulk liquied in IBC totes. It does take a little longer to fill them when he delivers the product, but I am on site helping to unload. Alot of my accounts are with in a 5 mile raidus of my shop, and its quick trips back to fill up.
     
  14. EliteSnow&Ice

    EliteSnow&Ice Senior Member
    Messages: 129

    So thats a total of 20 tips on a 100" bar, 20" off the ground?

    My control value is a teejet 1" flanged ball valve with 100 gpm with a 5psi drop. I've got 1" hose down to the spray bar and the bar is 3/4" hose connected to between each sprayer tip.

    Do you run any type of metering device? I have to check the tank lvl after each customer to figure out how much has been applied.
     
  15. Kubota 8540

    Kubota 8540 PlowSite.com Addict
    Messages: 1,952

    Yes 20 tips 5" apart on a 100"long x 1" diameter bar. I think it's the one in my avatar picture. Sounds like we have the same basic setups.

    Figured out that a metering device really wasn't necessary, if you run approx right speed and it's 1 less cost and item to screw up. I generally check the tank level to make sure I have used the right amount, seeing how I already know the size of each lot.
     
  16. bharkness

    bharkness Junior Member
    Messages: 24

    Give us a call The De-icemaster 800-286-7312
     
  17. ANA Proscapes

    ANA Proscapes Senior Member
    from NH
    Messages: 109

    Why did you get out of liquid de-icing? I thought you where having great results with it?
     
  18. Plow man Foster

    Plow man Foster PlowSite.com Addict
    Messages: 1,153

    This year we bought a GMC w4500, 550 gallon tank, 4 hp 1 1/2" pacer pump, 1" teejet ball bearing valve and jumped up to 13 teejet nozzles. Not sure how much product were putting down per min due to the fact we where so late in the season getting it set up. We run half throttle, 35psi and drive 8 to 10 mph, and it seems to get enough product down.

    We have that same setup our truck w/ a few Mods.... pump is a 6.5HP pump with the same size tank but We have 2 nozzles Which spray the whole width of the truck +a couple ft when we kick the pump up a little.

    What bed did you get on yours?? I assume the dump or flatbed. We got the regular tailgate bed. And one punch on the brakes i guess the tank shifted and cracked the bed by the wheel well....
    Didnt find this out until the end of the season when we were taking the tank out.

    BAck to the question: We love liquid we use it more than rock. But when you spread and spray they work sooooooo well!
    To use liquid you have to get used to it. You gotta know ground temps and a couple other factors. If you Get a State of the art Sprayer, Spray the liquid every which way you;re gonna hate it... then guys like me end up buying you guys' setups for close to nothing!

    ROCK is a Pain!!!!!! You cant keep Rock in your truck For more than a Night of so. Liquid i can keep in my truck for the whole season! In Michigan!
     
    Last edited: Aug 13, 2011
  19. Brian Young

    Brian Young PlowSite Veteran
    Messages: 3,382

    We used liquid for a few years and had great luck with it. Its nice not having to worry about it freezing up. We did quite a bit of salting with the 550 gallon system we have....WHICH IS FOR SALE> details are at my original post "550 gallon liquid system". Its easier to load up, and you can get into a gravity fed system for very little money as we started.
     
  20. Plow man Foster

    Plow man Foster PlowSite.com Addict
    Messages: 1,153

    Only Problem with Gravity Fed Systems is they arent very efficient/slow.
    I have 5gpm pump on my walkbehind brine sprayer