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Liquid application systems

Discussion in 'Ice Management' started by Alan, Jun 29, 2002.

  1. Alan

    Alan PlowSite.com Addict
    Messages: 1,393

    OK, I'm workign on another of my wild hair ideas and have a half a boatload of questions about liquid applicators. I'm also willing to bet that between product vendors and users there's answers to be had here.

    Let's suppose you took a pressure tank (I just happen to have a 60 gallon compressor tank) and made a cradle so you could hook it down in the back of a pickup. Pipe it up to an on-board air system, like air springs use, so you can pressurize it. Add a solenoid valve and spray bar.

    On the surface it would seem that you would have a very simple, lightweight, and reliable spray system. Granted, in this case it's not going to be a big system, but it would appear to be a cheap way to try straight liquid applications.

    Some things I have already thought about;

    You would need a liquid with a low solids content as there would be no agitation.

    I don't think you could (legally) run down the road with the tank pressurized.

    Pressurizing the tank when it was full would not take much air, and keeping up with drawoff wouldn't either, but repressurizing with a partial tank might be a slow process.

    Now, questions;

    How much pressure does it take to reliably deliver material?

    What is the trade off between gallons of liquid and pounds of salt? Ie: 1 gallon = ? pounds. We'll assume the same temperature and other conditions for either material.

    What liquids have the lowest percantage of solids, and is settling a valid concern? Would material sloshing in the tank keep the solids suspended?

    OK,, now for comments, both negative and positive. Would it work or not?
     
  2. CT18fireman

    CT18fireman Banned
    Messages: 2,133

    I wonder how lightweight a 60 gallon steel tank is. Plus you will have considerate weight in material, I would think close to 500 lbs.

    My thought would be that if a low enough pressure could be use mabe a lightweight plastic tank would be more weight friendly.

    Very interesting idea to run off an onboard air. You would be surprised the cfm and pressure out of some. I run a York compressor that will run my air tools and fill tires even without the storage tank.
     
  3. Alan

    Alan PlowSite.com Addict
    Messages: 1,393

    While the tank itself might be fairly heavy (I'm thinking the one I have here is in the 100 lb. range) there would be very little other weight involved. Going pressurized would eliminate the pump and motor, and a steel tank would need only a very rudimentary skid, rather than the full cradle poly tanks need. The weight of product runs about 10+ lbs/gal so even that small a tank gets heavy pretty fast. Since there would be times when the truck would be plowing with a part load in the tank one of my concerns is how much force becomes involved with several hundred pounds hammering around in the tank.
     
  4. OBRYANMAINT

    OBRYANMAINT PlowSite.com Veteran
    from ohio
    Messages: 534

    the way i inderstood a liquid app system ,, is that it was not "pressurized" by air.. it was just pumped and if any pressure was present it was the liquid only



    I bet you could make a gravity fed system to just try out materials
     
  5. CT18fireman

    CT18fireman Banned
    Messages: 2,133

    All very true. I do not know much about liquids but have also been trying to learn more. I can't see why your idea would not work. Only thing would be getting pressures, flow rates and patterns.

    An Idea. With a tank that size you could mount it like a transfer tank behind the cab and have the fluid flow to the back. Thus still have bed space and a tailgate. I suppose you could even mount the spray bar to a back plow and be able to use the back plow as well.

    Interesting project. Let me know how you proceed and what info you find on liquids outside of plowsite.
     
  6. Alan

    Alan PlowSite.com Addict
    Messages: 1,393

    All that matters to the nozzles is that they get enough pressure to produce the designed pattern. Any way that will produce that pressure will work. Whether by pump or a pressurized system becomes irrelevant to the nozzles. I'm just wondering if there is some hidden snafu that I'm not aware of. I'm thinking that onboard air would be more versatile and probably as cheap as a motorized pump and controls, especially if one pted for an electric start pump.
     
  7. CT18fireman

    CT18fireman Banned
    Messages: 2,133

    Alan

    If you have the room consider a York belt drive compressor. I puuled mine from a 80's Volvo and it works really well. Produces good cfm throughout the motor's rpm.

    I agree thaty it should work the same way. I can't think of any problems.
     
  8. Rooster

    Rooster Member
    from Kansas
    Messages: 650

    Just wondering, If you have a steel tank, by putting a water/salt mixture in it, won't the salt start attacking the steel?

    Rick
     
  9. Alan

    Alan PlowSite.com Addict
    Messages: 1,393

    NOT using brine. Magic, Iceban, Caliber, etc. No corrosion problems with that stuff.
     
  10. Taconic

    Taconic PlowSite.com Veteran
    Messages: 180

    OK Alan here is the snafu. FOAM! Most products foam under air pressure and that will be the 1st of really only a few hurdles to get over.The agitation which will be created by the truck as it travels down the road will prevent any separation of product make up for the most part.See what products are available in your area and find out from the manufacturer whether they foam under pressure.Some products will foam more than others and some loads of the products will foam worse than others even though you are using the same product.Quality control of the product you choose is critical if your going to pump it with air pressure.You can not just let the product gravity feed as someone mentioned earlier and expect results superior to using salt.You will need some pressure.
    My suggestion if i may before you build this system see which anti icers are readily available to you and check them out 1st
    See ya in October
    John Parker
    845-485-4200
     
  11. OriginalSnowman

    OriginalSnowman Junior Member
    Messages: 20

    Thought I'd throw in another view.

    I have had extensive experience spraying liquids (all varieties) for prewetting, anti-icing and deicing.

    You must have flow pace controls (ground speed controls) on board to deliver the correct amount of product required. Without groundspeed or flow pace controls, it's no different than painting a car with a garden hose. Yes, it will do something, but in the end you'll be unhappy with results.

    You asked about comparable rates of liquids verus dry products.

    To make that determination, you take the % of the dry (calcium chloride = 77% +) and compare it to the % of the liquid (calcium chloride = 32% +). At 11 lbs. per gallon of calcium chloride, one gallon of calcium chloride will have about 4 lbs. of dry equivalent. With salt, a 23% liquid weighs about 9.8 lbs/gallon and it would be compared with 90% dry. Therefore, one gallon of salt brine contains about 2 lbs. of salt equivalent.

    These are misleading figures. You can't evaluate liquids solely only on the active ingredient portion, rather, you need to consider them on a performance basis for the intended application; anti-icing, pre-wetting, or deicing.

    In our experience, spraying liquids for deicing in the Northeast is very risky because of the high relative humidities and the reaction the liquids have on snow covered roadways (slickness/ice formation). Remember that you are spraying down at least 70% water on a frozen road. Using liquids for pre-wetting salt, and anti-icing are good and have worked well for us. We do use liquids for de-icing, but you have to know exactly what you are doing and you have to be prepared to deliver a lot of volume at a tightly controlled rate in a short period of time to avoid disaster.

    While the urge to tinker with liquids on a small scale might be strong, remember the garden hose paint job analogy. Without the right tools, the job will likely be compromised and you will want to blame the liquids for non-performance when the problem is really the equipment.
     
  12. JD PLOWER

    JD PLOWER PlowSite.com Veteran
    Messages: 751

    Originalsnowman where in Boston are you located?
     
  13. SLC1

    SLC1 Senior Member
    Messages: 242

    Does anyone have any experience or thoughts on the system being sold by hydro-terra. The one that is the brine-generator and also the truck unit. This looks something that I may be intrested in and would like to hear anyone elses thougths on the system, (good or bad) Please let me know.
     
  14. ceaman

    ceaman Senior Member
    Messages: 372

    I saw the hydro terra unit at the symposium. The Brine maker looks like a great idea for making smaller quantitys of brine. I built a system similar to thiers last season for spraying. This year i am working on a brine maker as well.

    The only problem I am finding is were to get a liquid inhibitor to add to my brine. Any sugestions????