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Is it true...???

Discussion in 'Ice Management' started by Shawdogg, Dec 3, 2008.

  1. Shawdogg

    Shawdogg Junior Member
    Messages: 27

    Is it true when you apply salt / sand to a residential driveway you are than held liable for slip / falls......personal injuries?????
     
  2. Runner

    Runner Senior Member
    Messages: 957

    Whenever you do ANYthing to someones driveway (or parking lot), you are subject susceptible to a certain amount of culpability.
     
  3. terrapro

    terrapro PlowSite Veteran
    from MI
    Messages: 3,874

    yep, you could spit on someones driveway and be held liable for slip and falls.
     
  4. TCLA

    TCLA 2000 Club Member
    Messages: 2,699

    Welcome to the wonderful world of indemnification and liability. :drinkup:
     
  5. elite1msmith

    elite1msmith 2000 Club Member
    from chicago
    Messages: 2,762

    when you simply shovel..... you then could be found liable. Since you touched it, then it is no longer considered an act of god,

    as a hired professional , you are expected to service the property in a safe manor. Its the same concept as a electrician doing wiring in a home.... if he doesnt wire somthing correctly and someone gets hurt or the house burns to the ground... he could be at fault , if the source of the fire was as a result of him not doing the work properly

    even if your not paid to salt, once you touch it , it becomes yours.

    a Mechanic isnt suppost to let you drive your car away from there shop with a leaking break line.

    same concept.... if they deneye your salt request, then have then sign a form that they are liable and that you strongly recommend spreading salt
     
  6. Shawdogg

    Shawdogg Junior Member
    Messages: 27

    Is there a "hold harless agreement" form that i could have my customers sign that would cover my "a##"??? I am insured, but just looking to cover all angles
     
  7. plownoob

    plownoob Senior Member
    from ny
    Messages: 128

    8. IDEMNIFICATION: OWNER/AGENT shall indemnify, defend and hold harmless CONTRACTOR, its agents, servants, successors and assigns, from and against all losses, damages, injuries, claims, demands and expenses, of whatever nature, arising out of the performance of this AGREEMENT. OWNER/AGENT shall assume the settling of, and the defense of any suites or other legal proceedings brought to enforce all such losses, damages, injuries, claims, demands and expenses and shall pay all judgments entered in the suite for other legal proceedings. The indemnification and assumptions of liability and obligation herein provided shall continue in full force and effect notwithstanding the termination of this Agreement, whether by expiration of time, by operation of law or otherwise for any such claims made or accruing during the term of this lease.


    I try to sneak it into everything I do...pretty boilerplate.
     
  8. elite1msmith

    elite1msmith 2000 Club Member
    from chicago
    Messages: 2,762

    keep in mind, an agreement such as this, is more to scare people into thinking that your no liable. Even if the electrical contractor made you sign an agreement, even if you made him install against his own advise, if it causes a fire, or other problem , its still his fault , he hooked it up

    you salted or plowed the lot, so it could still be your fault. every situation is different. If you were hired to do the job, and the proprty wasnt serviced correclty then its still your fault. But most ppl will read that above statement and skip the contractor and go for the property owner. Just depends.

    Most leagal aggreements, are nothing more than a load of BS, really. Its not what you say , rather how you say it. If they belive its their own fault..... good,

    an example was given a few weeks ago on here, regaurding signing away your right to sue. Really you cant do that. its not a binding contract. However , how many ppl would read a statment and just assume that they gave you their right to sue by signing it


    Keep gppd records, if you can prove that you serviced ot correctly, you had temps and weather info ..you knew what time , how much and what type of salt or service was done, .... If you have all that and an old lady slipps and falls. you would have to prove that you did all you could, and the old lady fell becasue she cant walk and has poor balance rather than the condition of the surface she was on.


    Plownoob- thats very well written,
     
  9. coldcoffee

    coldcoffee Senior Member
    Messages: 776

    I would advise becoming familiar w/ your own state laws regarding slip &falls, as these laws can vary from state to state. In Ohio it is written that basically, when conditions exist (are obvious) persons are to take care in protecting themselves from such occurrences. Basically...someone pulls into a lot, can see that it's snowing and can see that there is snow on the ground, they assume that risk. Doesn't mean there won't be a lawsuit, it just means that their chances of winning a judgement are slim to none. Property owners aren't required to do anything pertaining to snow and ice control, but you as the contractor assume some liability (fuzzy area). If negligence or a condition can be proven that you were the cause of...Lets say you piled snow over a storm sewer lid, blocking the flow of melting snow and that caused puddling which froze to black ice the next day when the skies were clear...if that scenario could be proven it would be on you. Another problem is that there are professional scam artists that understand the laws and know what to look for.
    I make a point to point out possible hazards and code violations to property owners and there management, which not only helps me to sell my services of snow and ice control, but also I'm sometimes hired to correct possible "accidents waiting to happen". I make them see my point of what could happen "if this problem is not corrected". They usually thank me, I earn their trust/respect and they understand that what it will cost to pay me to correct those hazards is small when compared to that of a lawsuit. Not to mention, I sell the job because I have proven to them that I have the knowledge, experience and their best interest at heart, which in turn gives them a piece of mind and they don't go out of their way to take other bids! I address the problems they didn't know they had, and others failed to address. It's not always about "who's the cheapest". :salute:
     
  10. BRENTMAN

    BRENTMAN Senior Member
    Messages: 222

    this country and its trigger-happy people who try to sue everyone around them for their own idiotic actions is just down the drain. Slip and fall, sue the plowguy? how about sue your goofy pair of wobbly legs you clumsy idiot.
     
  11. Shawdogg

    Shawdogg Junior Member
    Messages: 27

    Thanks to all for your input. Yep, people are foolish to pull the sue happy trigger to quickly.....certainly are not responsible people for there own actions. :(
     
  12. Shawdogg

    Shawdogg Junior Member
    Messages: 27

    Thanks to all for your input. Yep, people are foolish to pull the sue happy trigger to quickly.....certainly are not responsible people for there own actions. :(
     
  13. BRENTMAN

    BRENTMAN Senior Member
    Messages: 222

    it jsut contributes to slowing down a positive progression of this country and its economy
     
  14. jhesseman

    jhesseman Junior Member
    Messages: 2

    Coldcoffee, I gotta say that I have noticed alot of your contributions to these posts. Thanks alot! This is my first year plowing. I have 4 office park accounts and my head is spinning with one of the guys. He gives me firm instructions to keep the sidewalks clear and then when i send him a bill for salting, he doesn't want to pay it and claims that his 2" trigger should take care of it until the next plowing. I'm from the Akron area (of ohio) and temps have been dipping in the 20's during the day. I just want to shake this guy sometimes!

    anyways, thanks again, and to everyone on here! this is just where i needed to vent!
     
  15. BRENTMAN

    BRENTMAN Senior Member
    Messages: 222

    i dont get it, he doesnt want to pay because why?? You need to explain to him that "2 in trigger" is just when you START....it doesnt mean "for every 2 inches".
     
  16. jhesseman

    jhesseman Junior Member
    Messages: 2

    like i said, i just want to shake him. as an owner of several office parks i figured he would understand that. he can't figure out why i was separately charging him for salting (which was in the contract) when there was no heavy snowfall. I've explained over and over that he instructed me to keep the sidewalks clean and ice free, which i'm doing. as ice melts or if it snows even just 1 inch there will be work necessary to keep the walks clear. i honestly feel like he didn't read the contract at all.

    luckily the 2 other accounts I have are per season, which is proving to be so much better!
     
  17. coldcoffee

    coldcoffee Senior Member
    Messages: 776

    Thanks for the comp! I enjoy giving back, as I can remember what it was like starting out and have been helped many times myself. I've watched many people come and go in this business...and as this economy worsens and the unemployment rate increases, this business unfortunately is one people tend to jump into, because of the misconceptions of it being easy money and that anybody can do it. I'm also disturbed by how badly the rates are being manipulated, and the business as a whole on both sides (buyer and seller), lets throw suppliers in there also...As the trend continues, the market quickly becomes over saturated, and guys continue to slash each others throats just to make a quick buck...when they fail and fall out there seems to be at least 2-3 more in line to replace each one that failed and the "snow ball effect" worsens...only leading to poor service!
    So...if I can help w/ promoting professionalism, I'll do what I can as I have to eat too!

    I didn't understand what the 2" trigger had to do w/ getting paid for your salt work...to me those are usually 2 separate things. I guess I'm just wondering if he's just trying to manipulate the deal...that happens a lot in this business. It doesn't matter so much at this point what the guy says...what matters is how it's all stated in your contract. PM me if you want me to look at it w/ you...otherwise I'm just guessing. You may need to have a pow wow w/ this guy and have a change order ready in case you have to make mods...don't be afraid of him, and don't get SkruD !
     
  18. BRENTMAN

    BRENTMAN Senior Member
    Messages: 222

    straight up.
    Meet with him, point it out to him in lehmanns terms as if he were a 5th grader trying to learn multiplication tables. Hopefully, you stated in your contract that at any point in time, for any reason, you have the right to terminate the contract. If he still doesnt get it, i'd terminate the contract and not even waste your breath dude. Of course, its always nice to try to reach an understanding with every customer, but sometimes its just not worth the headache. And dont let one sh*tty account steer you away from Per Push.