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is down pressure possible or necessary???

Discussion in 'Hiniker' started by dmontgomery, Feb 27, 2008.

  1. dmontgomery

    dmontgomery PlowSite.com Addict
    Messages: 1,238

    I am very interested in the Scoop.....has anyone ever customized a Hiniker to produce down pressure?? Is it even possible with the scissor lift???

    Derek
     
  2. NBI Lawn

    NBI Lawn PlowSite.com Addict
    Messages: 1,797

    I dont know why you would want it :confused:. IMO if it was that great more than one company would offer it.
    The 9' scoops scrape very well without it :nod:
     
  3. dmontgomery

    dmontgomery PlowSite.com Addict
    Messages: 1,238

    My guess is you have never used it......

    I would want it because I have it now and it is a great feature.... My plow scrapes great without it on also.......but it is always nice to have that little extra. It is currently a patent issue as far as other manufacturers offering it....
     
    Last edited: Feb 27, 2008
  4. B&B

    B&B PlowSite Fanatic
    Messages: 12,777

    I believe they call it patent infrigment ;)
     
  5. NBI Lawn

    NBI Lawn PlowSite.com Addict
    Messages: 1,797

    All they would have to do to avoid it is place a valve in a different spot and show why it is not the same. Just like when Boss had the patent on the lock cylinders for the V plow. It isnt (that) hard to get around a patent.

    Just like snow plows. They all have a patent yet everyone makes one. Why, because they are all different. Same would go for down preasure, if they wanted it they could get it.
     
  6. B&B

    B&B PlowSite Fanatic
    Messages: 12,777

    So who other than Boss uses their patented single acting locking cylinders on their Vee plows?

    It's not as easy as it sounds...
     
  7. NBI Lawn

    NBI Lawn PlowSite.com Addict
    Messages: 1,797

    No one but Hiniker has locking cylinders... see where this is going :rolleyes:
     
  8. B&B

    B&B PlowSite Fanatic
    Messages: 12,777

    :confused:
     
  9. NBI Lawn

    NBI Lawn PlowSite.com Addict
    Messages: 1,797

    What is so confusing?

    No one has locking cylinders exactly like the ones Boss offers but Hiniker has some that do the same thing. You cant patent ideas just specific designs for your idea.
     
    Last edited: Feb 28, 2008
  10. B&B

    B&B PlowSite Fanatic
    Messages: 12,777

    Correct me if I'm wrong here but the Hiniker cylinders are double acting.

    That wouldn't be "locking".

    Boss uses a single acting cylinder with a locking mechanism to mechanically lock the cylinder in place.
     
  11. B&B

    B&B PlowSite Fanatic
    Messages: 12,777

    And thats because they're patented.

    Sure you can uses a different method to do the same thing, but unless it's a completely different design your running on a patent infringement.


    Not an easy thing to do to add DP to a plow with a direct acting lift/lower mechanism and hydraulics..just like the patented product describes.

    I didn't say it can't be done. I said it isn't just that easy or inexpensive.
     
  12. basher

    basher PlowSite Fanatic
    from 19707
    Messages: 8,992


    Nothing is confusing to the empty mind, so get your head out of your butt and do some research before you start making incorrect statements. You need to learn a little about the units you'e comparing and patents before you start pontificating about their designs and patent status.

    Hiniker uses double acting cylinders, as do DD, Meyer and Snoway. No one but boss uses Cyln. locks, because they are the only ones that need them as only they use return springs on their wings. Double acting cyl. aren't patentable because unlike the Boss design they are not a Unique application.

    Of course you can patent ideas, how well it's protected depends on your patent attorney. SW has DP patented, Boss had the patent on Vees and made DD remove their Vee from the market when it first came out. do you think DD bought blizzard for any reason but the patents?

    Read SW's patents on Dp. It's written so that the very concept of DP as we know it is patented. It's not the manner that it does it, it's the concept that is patented. Now if you could make a non hydraulically Dp plow that does not automatically over ride the DP when you give the raise command you might get a dp system to market with-out running afoul with SW patent attorneys. But I doubt it!

    Do a little research, talk to some industry insiders, there are tales of patent infringement every were. Not much research will result in uncovering Boss, DD, Meyer, S.A.M, Buyers, SW all having sued or been sued successfully to stop competitors from using patented ideas. You'd be surprised to learn who is paying whom for the right to manufacturer a product that infringes on patent designs, and what those designs are.

    As for the Hiniker system using DP it would require the addition of a double acting cylnder, a bunch of valves, pressure switches, wiring additions and some modifications to the lift scissors to even attempt to "push down" For the cost it would be cheaper the sell the unit and buy an SW.
     
  13. dmontgomery

    dmontgomery PlowSite.com Addict
    Messages: 1,238

    Thanks....Basher....I should have just asked you to begin with..... As I have stated I love my SW.....I was just curious since Hiniker has a direct lift system.....

    D
     
  14. NBI Lawn

    NBI Lawn PlowSite.com Addict
    Messages: 1,797

    From my first post all I have been saying is there is a way to make a system that would create down pressure that wouldn’t infringe on the SW patent. There are multiple ways to do the same thing.
    When I compared the Hiniker and Boss cylinders I was trying to get you to pick up on an idea. Boss and Hiniker have "locking cylinders", they do the "same" thing yet are completely different in the way they function.
    You can’t patent an idea. In order to get awarded a patent you have to show specifically how your “idea” works. You can’t just send them a piece of paper that says “My idea is a snow plow that applies down pressure”. If it were that easy everything would have a patent, this country would have stopped growing technologically and economically years ago.
    If down pressure was something customers wanted, or there was a need for it the big companies would come up with a way to do it. If Hiniker, Boss etc… wanted to come up with a down pressure system that was more efficient or operated in a different manner than the SW they could patent it. It is probably just not worth the hassle since it isn’t needed with 800lbs+ snow plows.
    This isn’t about knowledge of snow plows, it is the understanding the patents. I don’t want to start with a me me me or an I I I but I hold a couple patents from my college years and I know how it is to get a patent. One of mine was sent back multiple times because it wasn’t specific enough on how it operated.

    With that said prsport, I have fairly strong feelings about this so we could probably go all day or week for that matter but I think we all have better things to do. I will however read the patent on SW DP system.

    To answer the original question no, there isnt anything currently offered that would allow you to put down pressure on a Hiniker.


    EDIT: basher, I just noticed you are a SW dealer so your comments are probably a little bias. I am sure you have a great idea what SW tells you.

    BTW, if someone can show I am completely wrong I will send you a gift card to your local drinking establishment. There is nothing I hate more then people who come on to forums that are sooo wrong but think they are sooo right.
     
    Last edited: Feb 28, 2008
  15. basher

    basher PlowSite Fanatic
    from 19707
    Messages: 8,992


    ROFLMAO:cool:
     
  16. B&B

    B&B PlowSite Fanatic
    Messages: 12,777

    That's just it NBI, as far as applying DP on a Hiniker. A SW uses hydro force to apply downward pressure by means of a scissor mechanism to the moldboard...it's written right in the SW patent that way.

    So a Hiniker uses a scissor mechanism to lift and lower, as well as hyro's for pressure. If you apply hydro pressure to the mold board via the scissor lift mechanism to apply downward pressure, you'd be in a direct patent infringement situation....extra valves and linkage or not, your still applying hydro pressure to the moldboard, not unique by any means.

    So basically if you apply hydro force thru a scissor, you'd be doing the exact same thing as the SW patent clearly specifies.


    If you have a unique idea for applying DP to a Hinkiker without the use of hydro force thru the scissor mechanism in any way, please share it with us as it would be a true asset to Hiniker owners to have DP capability.


    Anybody who's run a plow with DP capability will tell you it truly is an asset and I can assure you if the SW patent wasn't so iron clad, many if not all of the other plow manufactures would be on the DP bandwagon in a heartbeat.
     
    Last edited: Feb 28, 2008
  17. toby4492

    toby4492 2000 Club Member
    Messages: 2,513

    :nod::nod::nod::nod:
     
  18. B&B

    B&B PlowSite Fanatic
    Messages: 12,777

    No, from your first post you asked why anybody would even want DP..and if they did you didn't understand why all plows don't have it. Which is also what my first post was addressing.

    Then your second post specifically stated that it isn't too hard to get around SW's patent for DP. So in my second post I did my best to explain why that isn't so...


    But I'd like to get back to your original post that you couldn't see why anybody would want DP on their plow. Have you ever used a DP equipped plow? I'm going to have to assume you haven't. If you did, it would be crystal clear to you why DP is such an asset. especially with residential.


    Now that Basher and Toby both are involved in this thread, I'd like to ask either one since they'd be the most likely to have the first hand resources to answer this question:

    Of all the SW plows that are sold, what is the percentage of buyers that spend the extra money for the DP option on a SW?
     
  19. basher

    basher PlowSite Fanatic
    from 19707
    Messages: 8,992

    I stock only DP plows, it's only a $300.00 upgrade so it's cheaper then a set of smart locks;)

    I brought a gravity drop vee blade in for a customer who stiffed me for it in 2004 I just sold it (gave it away really) 2 weeks ago.

    Not every customer comes in looking for the DP but once they have it they never walk away.
     
  20. B&B

    B&B PlowSite Fanatic
    Messages: 12,777

    So you would say as a SW dealer that DP capability is a strong market seller for SW, and would be increasing their bottom dollar across the board, as well as reinforce their brand loyalty for the DP concept?

    Wonder why the other plow manufactures don't have a DP option?